Author Topic: Night's all right! :-)  (Read 434 times)

Offline Esme

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Night's all right! :-)
« on: May 10, 2002, 08:58:49 AM »
What is WRONG with so many of you - even some experienced ones - that you don't seem to want night in the game? Half of WW2 was fought at night, on land sea and in the air!

OK, so this is a game. Isn't variety GOOD in a game?  keeps things interesting? Gives you more things to do, and so everyone more chance of finding something they are good at - which is fun, is it not?

OK, so maybe you, out of personal preference, don't like night flying. Then don't! Simple as that. Either grab a GV, field or ship gun, or logoff and log back when night is over. That's all you have to do. Is that so difficult?

Maybe you thnk flying at night is hard? Not in the kind of nighttime Aces High has, it isn't. It's exactly the same as flying by day, it's just that the sky is black. The ground is actually easier to see in full night in AH than when the sun is low on the horizon.

Fighting at night is hard? Not at all! Again, due to the lighting, it's much the same. What IS more difficult is finding enemy aircraft when you don't know which altitude they are at, but that's it.  You can still see other planes before they come into icon range (which IMO is ridiculously far out for night time, but thats the way things are right now).  Last night (UK time) in the CT arena, where the Sicily terrain was for most of the time stuck on night-time,  a few dozen folk had a rip-roaring time fighting by night.  It's atmospheric, and the visibility being DIFFERENT keeps things interesting. You really notice fires more, for one thing.

Now going back to historicity, it has been the case in most WW2 flight sims until fairly recently that one has to fly in bright blue skies with few if any clouds. At first, that was due to the limitatios of home computers, but now? Oddly enough, which air force operated most by clear blue daylight? The US air force.  Which sim pilots collectively seem to be most against night flying? US ones.

Why did the LW and RAF operate mostly by night after the start of the war? Because that was what worked best  for them with the equipment they had, at the time.  So when people start saying "what the LW needs is the He177" the reason I scream "No!" - despite being a specialist LW bomber pilot - is that calls for the He177 stem from the kind of thinking that would turn the LW into an ersatz 8th Air Force, running massed 4-engine escorted bomber raids by daylight.

Well, that may be fun once or twice (variety, remember?) but ultimately it is a case of trying to force everyone to play it the good old USAF way, ie diminishing the variety in the game as a whole.  Give me a Do217, and give me clouds and night to work with... yes, give Allied night-fighters some form of Airborne Intercept radar (if the dots on the clipboard arent enough) too, by all means!  

But please do NOT keep mindlessly saying "night sux" (sic).  All that shows is that you  personally do not like it, for whatever reason, whether it be because you are scared you'll find night-flying too hard (certainly isnt so at the moment), or because you are a kill dweeb that cant bear not being able to find a fight within 5 minutes, or because you want to kill the fun of peple who DO want to experience night combat.

The only halfway valid complaint against night I've seen thus far was by Odee (!) who said that he was unhappy with the CT being stuck on night as it kept numbers down in the CT. Well, if that IS the case, then shame on the rest of you who use the CT; it is SUPPOSED to be more realistic than the MA. And if you're telling me that you cant cope with conditions that a middle-aged housewife of uncertain health finds laughably easy, then what does that tell you? That maybe you need to do a LITTLE more practice at whatever skill or skills it is that you are lacking!

The hardest skill in AH is learning to fly in the first place. No,cancel that; it's the second, landing planes is the hardest. If you can handle that by daylight, you can handle it by night as it currently exists in AH.  

And if you just dont want to fly by night, then just don't!  I won't criticise you for it, just as I won't (and don't) whine that "day sux" either - even though from my point of view daylight is a far harder environment to survive in.  And yes, I fly both day and night, fighters and bombers both, GVs when I feel so inclined.

Just PLEASE quit whining about the sky going black every now and then. It isnt really dark enough (as is) to affect much at all, and if you stopped whining and LOOKED around you more, you'd see that.  And if you truly don't like night in the MA, be glad that even I wouldnt campaign for the kind of night I'd like to see (in the CT) in the MA - very dark, often little or no moon and sometimes VERY cloudy too - othertimes clear and brightly moonlit. And awash with radar-equipped nightfighters!

Esme
CO, Kampfgeschwader 2 "Holzhammer"

Offline Sikboy

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Re: Night's all right! :-)
« Reply #1 on: May 10, 2002, 09:04:38 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Esme
What is WRONG with so many of you


Perhaps the best way to advance your agenda would be to not open by dividing this into "us" and "them" Perhaps, and try to follow me here, it's not about right and wrong, but about a difference of opinion.

-Sikboy
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Me: Meh, whatever.

Offline Yeager

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Night's all right! :-)
« Reply #2 on: May 10, 2002, 09:22:22 AM »
One thing about night darkness is those damned bright icons.  Destroys the whole purpose of night IMO (and NO I wont turn em off when everyone else has em on).

I honestly dont mind night.  Like said elsewhere, its just a good time to do something else besides play a game on the computer.

Its a game imposed breaktime.  But it sucks when all I have is half an hour to play and I log into inky blackness.
"If someone flips you the bird and you don't know it, does it still count?" - SLIMpkns

Offline Esme

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Night's all right! :-)
« Reply #3 on: May 10, 2002, 10:51:38 AM »
darned thing partially posted before Id finished; following one is actual response :-)

Esme
« Last Edit: May 10, 2002, 10:55:33 AM by Esme »

Offline Esme

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Night's all right! :-)
« Reply #4 on: May 10, 2002, 10:54:03 AM »
Sikboy, I'm afraid you've nmissed your target - or rather, aimed at the wrong one.  There are many ways I could have opened this, phrased that, etc.

Sure I started by asking what's wrong with so many folks regarding their attitue to night combat - but I've then gone on to explain that most of the reaons I've seen given for the "night sucks" attitude simply do not apply.  And the thing is, some people seem to think ONLY of the needs of the MA, forgetting that there are folk who want a more realistic setup.  More often, the "us and them" attitude seems to me to be going in the other direction - I prefer realism in my flying, but am happy to knock about the MA for  laugh, and do not want to spoil folks fun there.

Contrast my attitude with those who continually seek evidence of this or that "uber" plane theyd like to see in the game which may well not even have existed as a prototype, much less seen active service... contrast it with those who don't CARE about other people's fun so long as they are ALWAYS catered for no matter WHERE they fly.

It's not a matter of difference of opnion; it's amatter of different attitude to depth and variety in the game. I am in favour of more variety and depth in the game for all to enjoy.  Those that dont want so much depth and variety can always have it turned down in the MA by the CMs.  

Those that don't care (whether generally or just for the moment) about realism can fly in the MA. Those that LIKE more realism can fly... where? In the CT is the obvious answer, but if the CT is altered to pander to those who want daylight action only, what then? Fair? Reasonable? Historical? Hardly!

I just want the CT to be more realistic than the MA is all,and THAT entails a decent amount of night and shorter icon distances.

So - your point was?  :-)

Esme

Offline Esme

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Night's all right! :-)
« Reply #5 on: May 10, 2002, 10:59:11 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Yeager
One thing about night darkness is those damned bright icons.  Destroys the whole purpose of night IMO (and NO I wont turn em off when everyone else has em on).

I honestly dont mind night.  Like said elsewhere, its just a good time to do something else besides play a game on the computer.

Its a game imposed breaktime.  But it sucks when all I have is half an hour to play and I log into inky blackness.


so... when I have half an hour to play and I log on wanting some night action and its a glaring sun high in a clear blue sky that's all right, is it?

Sorry Yeager, fair's fair.  Agreed on the icons.

Esme

Offline lazs2

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Night's all right! :-)
« Reply #6 on: May 10, 2002, 11:02:32 AM »
esme.. i believe that you are incorrect about "half of WWII was fought at night"  some wasn't fought at all at night some, was fought mostly at night but as far as air combat.... no fighting was done at night by the planes that are modeled in AH.  the only exception would be some orf the fluffs but.... who cares about fluffs anyway?

since the planes we are flying in AH are not nightfighters then it seems silly to have night.  
lazs

Offline AKSWulfe

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Night's all right! :-)
« Reply #7 on: May 10, 2002, 11:11:42 AM »
110G-2, and some variants of the 190, Hurricanes, and Spitfires did do night interception Lazs... of the aforementioned fluffs.

The only dogfights were between P61s and 190s though, maybe some variations of Ju88 night fighters scuffled with fighters during dusk patrols, I dunno.

But hell, this is a game.... if it ain't fun for you, it's fun for someone else. If it's fun for you, it probably ain't fun for someone else.

Give some, lose some... night, as is, has little impact on the game at all because it lasts a total of 20 minutes.
-SW

Offline Esme

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Night's all right! :-)
« Reply #8 on: May 10, 2002, 11:15:31 AM »
ROTFLMTO!

Laz, Hurricanes, Spitfires, Mosquitos,109s and 190s most CERTAINLY all fought at night, most (barring the Mossie) without any form of AI radar at all.

Fluff btw is that single-engined stuff that whines around you  being annoying when you're trying to make a good bombing run. the most numerous and most important aircraft of the war were bombers. If it hadnt been for bombers and recce planes, fighters wouldnt have had a job to do. Which is a silly damned way of putting it, but in terms of importance to the course of WW2, its not too gross an overstatement to say that the aircraft involved were bombers plus a lesser number of bits of fluff (fighters).

Thankfully, some of those bits of fluff fought and won the Battle of Britain, stopping the decidedly non-fluffy bombers on the other side from doing their stuff. Even fighter-fluff has it's uses, I suppose. ;-)


Fighter pilot; someone who knows ONLY ACM and isnt bright enough to do mission-planning, navigation  and use a bombsight


Esme

Offline lazs2

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Night's all right! :-)
« Reply #9 on: May 10, 2002, 11:43:34 AM »
"ROTFLMTO!

Laz, Hurricanes, Spitfires, Mosquitos,109s and 190s most CERTAINLY all fought at night, most (barring the Mossie) without any form of AI radar at all."
"
esme.. are you saying that the above planes flew half of their  sorties at night and that altoghether over half of the fighter sorties in WWII were flown by thge planes represented in AH?

Fluff does not have anything to do with the Bombers that were flown in WWII and is a descriptive term for what passes for said bombers in AH.   Also in AH the fluffs are totally dependant on fighters to give them any sort of meaning.
lazs

Offline Esme

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Night's all right! :-)
« Reply #10 on: May 10, 2002, 11:50:31 AM »
Laz - you said "no fighting was done at night by the planes modelled in AH".  I simply pointed out that you are incorrect. You've now tried moving the goalposts.  Night certainly existed for half the time in RL, so why not in AH? Less people flying fighters? Only because some will choose not to fly at night - but that'll just add a little realism, eh?

:-)

You'll have to be sharper than that, m'dear!

:-))

Esme

PS. noted your comments regarding use of the term "fluff". I still think that fighters are the fluff, albeit fluff that has a nasty bite! :-)

Offline lazs2

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Night's all right! :-)
« Reply #11 on: May 10, 2002, 12:03:57 PM »
Ok... I admit that "no nifghtfighting" was an exageration..  Certainly "very little" would have been more accuurate but...

to say that  night existed in RL we should model it is silly.   Your statement that half of WWII was fought at night remains incorrect especially if we are talking about ac...  It is true that most of thje planes if not all of them(fluffs excepted)were never designed to fight at night  and most never did if they could help it.

So what is it that you want us to simulate, sleeping in our cots?  Most do... by logging off.
lazs

Offline AKSWulfe

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Night's all right! :-)
« Reply #12 on: May 10, 2002, 12:09:43 PM »
It may be true that most planes were not built with the intention of fighting at night, but that's because radar small enough to fit in planes did not exist at the time.

As radar became smaller, more planes were adapted for operational use as either night bombers (using radio waves and other electronical devices to get to the target and drop their payload) or as night fighters. Some examples are the Ju88G(?) which was built solely as a night interceptor with the radar in the nose. The 110G was also adapted with Shrage Musik for night interceptions. Some 190s were retrofitted with exhaust flame blockers so the pilot could see. As were many F4Us and the F6F-5N (I think?) which was also equipped with onboard radar.

Granted, these systems weren't perfect.. but a majority of them guided you to the general vicinity of the aircraft and from there visual sighting would pick up the aircraft from the exhaust flames.

Night interceptions were also common during the Battle of Britain.

These resulted in quite a few kills, so to say that night fighting was a small part of WWII is an understatement.

The war didn't stop just because it was dark.
-SW

Offline lazs2

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Night's all right! :-)
« Reply #13 on: May 10, 2002, 12:15:33 PM »
the fighters that we have modelled in AH did not spend half their time fighting at night.
lazs

Offline Sikboy

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Night's all right! :-)
« Reply #14 on: May 10, 2002, 12:25:48 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Esme
Sikboy, I'm afraid you've nmissed your target - or rather, aimed at the wrong one.  There are many ways I could have opened this, phrased that, etc.

No, Actually I think I've hit it, even if you choose to ignore it.

Quote
Sure I started by asking what's wrong with so many folks regarding their attitue to night combat

That is a good chunk of my point right there

Quote

- but I've then gone on to explain that most of the reaons I've seen given for the "night sucks" attitude simply do not apply.  And the thing is, blah blah blah

So - your point was?  :-)


My point was, that when you start out something by saying essentially "I'm RIGHT, you're WRONG" you will have lost a good number of the people that you are trying to convince. You could have a beautiful case, with multiple contentions, backed by hard evidence, but it's all useless if the information doesn't make it to the target audience. If you just wanted to rally the pro-night forces and get your "rah-rah" on, then this is a good method. But if you were actually attempting to change peoples minds, then, in my opinion it is lacking.

Personally, I enjoy night. I like it the way it is, and it could change a little in either direction, and it wouldn't effect my playing. But poor argumentation (especially when such a little thing seems to undermine something that looks to have taken some effort and thought) is like fingernails on a chaulkboard.

-Sikboy
You: Blah Blah Blah
Me: Meh, whatever.