Spit I roll rate

[Urchin]

Hate to pick on a hangar queen, but does this plane roll to quickly?  Just about every book I've ever read said the 109E4 rolled more quickly than the Spit I.  However, in Aces High the Spit I has a 6 second roll in both directions, and the 109E4 has around an 8 second roll.  

The only source I've actually seen is in this link here .  It was posted in an earlier thread about the 109E's roll rate.  According to the chart there, the 109E4s roll rate is pretty much spot on- but the Spit I in Aces High rolls about 2.5x to quickly.  

Anyone have any data that doesn't agree with this source?  My Spitfire book doesn't have any data on roll rates (or if it does I can't find it).

[kreighund]

I have the NACA confidential bulletin, "Comparison of aileron control characteristics as determined in flight tests of the P-36,P-40,Spitfire, Hurricane and P-51A" made in Langley Field, Va. 1941 by William H. Phillips. (there is no NACA control number) I copied this when I was assigned to Moffet Field in San Jose Ca in 1994 from the NASA Library. They have a lot of neat stuff but not electronically stored only on microfiche.

This is at 30 lbs stick force or full deflection which ever comes first,
at 10000 feet  IAS
  MPH   120    140    160   180  200  220  240  260  280  300  320
  deg/s  
Spit        55      58      62     63    64    63    62    60    57    54    50

Hurr       49      54      57      61    62    63    63    62    58    54    48

P-36       67      76      84      91    62    47    39    33    28    24   22

P-40       50      57       64     72    80     86    94  101  108   88   75

P-51A     55      65        74     81    88     89    85   78    72    67   61

I hope this helps...how does one post graphics...I would love to post the chart....

[kreighund]

also in this report it does a comparison at 230mph IAS at 10kft with 5 lbs force(yes 5lbs)

              deg/sec
Spit            15
Hurr            19
P-40            8
P-36            9

This is a measure of aileron sensitivity...helps for conrtol in wind when landing.

[Karnak]

Urchin,

That chart you linked too matches what I am familiar with.  The Spitfire Mk  I should roll like an absolute pig, as opposed to the Bf109E-4 which merely rolls like a pig.

Shouldn't the Bf110C-4 roll badly as well?

[Urchin]

Kreig, that is interesting information, but I don't think it is applicable to the question.  By 1941, I believe the Spit I was out of service.  That roll rate comparison would most likely be a SpitV, I think.  

Karnak, I believe the Bf110 handled a LOT like the Bf109 (at least it has always been said that it did, I've never seen any flight test data on it).  So if the 109E rolls slow, I believe the 110C would roll slowly also- since if it rolled noticably faster (or slower) it probably would have been brought up by the pilots.

[Urchin]

The amount of interest is just shocking.... lol.  

Does anyone have any flight data whatsoever for the Spit I?  I've got all kinds of speeds at alt, but nothing on turn radius/rate, roll rate, etc.  I'd appreciate any help.

[Urchin]

I'm still trying....................... .

[Hooligan]

Just an thought.. are you taking roll response into account?

i.e.  Starting with no rolling movement, the roll rate that an aircraft has for the first 90 degrees is going to be less than for the next 90 degrees because of the time it takes to get to its full steady state roll rate.  Comparing 2 different types of aircraft, it might be that type #1 rolls more quickly than #2 from a non-rolling start but has a lesser maximum roll rate.  when you are timed  the rolls did you time from a non-rolling start?

Hooligan

[Urchin]

Yes, I timed from a non-rolling start.  Again, according to the link that I posted there, the time for a 109E to go 45 degrees was around 1 second (more or less from 200-300 mph).  Above 300 mph it goes up drastically.  

The time for a Spit I to roll 45 degrees was just under 2 seconds (according to the link).  The Spit one rolls both directions in 6 seconds from a non-rolling start.  

The 45 Degree roll rate of 1 second for the 109E corresponds well with what we have here in AH, I.E. a 8 second roll.  The 6 second roll we have in AH for the Spit I doesn't correspond at all to the 45 Degree roll rate of just under 2 seconds.

The chart matches what I've always read in pilots accounts that the 109E could out-roll the Spit I.  What we have in AH doesn't back that up.  

I'd just like to know if there is some other source out there showing 60 DPS from 200 to 275 mph or so for the Spit I.  I've never seen one, my Spit book doesn't have any roll rates in there (that I can find).

Just a note from Pyro saying.. "why yes there is some data suggesting the Spit I out-rolled the 109E", or "whoops, I'll take a look at that" and I'll be happy.  Till then I'd appreciate anyone with any roll rate numbers for the Spit I to post em here.

[Urchin]

punt