Author Topic: Bush knew of Hijack threat before it happened  (Read 1934 times)

Offline GRUNHERZ

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Bush knew of Hijack threat before it happened
« Reply #75 on: May 17, 2002, 11:59:53 PM »
Yes all the blind speculation is true! Bush let Sept. 11 happend because he needed an excuse for war, just like Roosevelt and Pearl Harbor.


Why do people countinue doing this after sneak attacks? :(

Offline weazel

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Bush knew of Hijack threat before it happened
« Reply #76 on: May 18, 2002, 04:36:21 AM »
"I think someone dropped the ball, and well ... as Commander in Chief I assume the President must assume some responsibility for this"

Absolutely.

Wasn't it President Truman who coined the phrase "The Buck Stops Here"?

When Chimpy took the oath he accepted alll the baggage that comes with the office of president......good or bad.  

I don't believe that Chimpy *knowingly* allowed the 9/11 attacks to occur, but as president the responsibility rests squarely on his pointy l'il head and shoulders.

"Vice President Dick Cheney (news - web sites) said in a speech in New York on Thursday that suggestions by some Democrats that the attacks could have been prevented were "thoroughly irresponsible and totally unworthy" of national leaders in a time of war"

The attacks *could* have been prevented...but only if national security assets either intercepted information or penetrated the organization who perpetrated the acts. The failure to uncover the plans ensured the terrorists would succeed.

Its disturbing to me that *both* parties are using a national tragedy for political gain.....

IMO Cheneys response is also indicative of the quality of his character.

His statement reveals a character flaw that has become common in the US....avoid accountability for ones actions, inactions, or responsibility...


"Yet, when this happens with Bush in the White House, you just wave it away with an "oh well, what can you do?"

As C3PO says, "How typical""


ROTFL!

You pounded that nail!

I find it hilarious that Clinton is lambasted by repugs for any percieved shortcoming, but when it comes to chimpy theres not a peep to be heard.  :rolleyes:

I'll use as an example the economies strength during Clintons 8 year DC hootnanny, I realize he didn't create the economic boom...but he didn't f*#k it up by pretending to be an economist and mucking with it either.  ;)

Oh...and speaking of double standards, look what the cat dragged in.   :rolleyes:  

Why weren't the questions brought up in 1998? Seems its politically motivated to bring it up now.  And Lemmings like yourself give them the nod...thats pretty sad...says alot for you and your party.

Offline Sikboy

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Bush knew of Hijack threat before it happened
« Reply #77 on: May 18, 2002, 07:20:55 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by aknimitz
Ok, maybe this was said already and I just didnt see it ... ok, so I didnt read ALL the posts.  But ... the awareness of planes being hijacked PLUS the awareness of Bin Laden/Al-Queda linked persons in flight training schools IN the USA ... to me its not that hard to figure out.
 


Nimitz,

The problem, as I understand it, is twofold. 1st, No one person had both pieces of information (I could be wrong on this one, but as I understand a single FBI agent had issued a report or warning on the Arabs in Flightschool, was this ever brought to the attention of the President though?) and 2nd, Post-Hoc analysis is a lot easier when the evidence is laid neatly side by side. During real time analysis however, we do not get that luxury. The importance of each piece of information is not known until after the event. Also, there is so much information that come across that turns out to be false. In intel they call this mass of information "noise." In a perfect world, you can cut through the noise and get to the right data and form a flawless analysis. But it hardly works out that way. And the best part of it all, is that when it does work out that way, we never here about it because tragidy is averted.

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Offline Kieran

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Bush knew of Hijack threat before it happened
« Reply #78 on: May 18, 2002, 07:46:22 AM »
Quote
Perhaps, but if the shoes fits....I can't remember the last time any of you conservatives ever admitting that Bush was not less than perfect.


I can't remember the last time any of us conservatives said he was perfect. Go figure... those words keep getting jammed into my mouth, though I personally have said time and again I wouldn't back him if he is proven to break the law. I have also said I am generally happy with the job he has done so far. So, what do I have to do to prove I don't have mindless allegience?

Sorry banana, tossing out words like "Republiclown" fails to give your viewpoint the hard-hitting effect of thorough, logical debate you say you so often fail to find here. What is interesting here is how a few of you are trying to evoke a reaction.

Here's what I like about Bush more than Clinton- WTC gets bombed, Clinton sends some cruise missles in. Silence. Cole gets bombed, a few more missiles. Silence. Change presidents. WTC get hit, send in troops.... and they're still there. Maybe it won't stop terrorism, but it sure sends a different message- you bomb us and we're coming for you.

Of course you may argue we are wasting our time with troops in Afghanistan, but I disagree. You may say we are foolish to chase them through the hills, but I say it is far better to do that than to appear like a whiney bunch of hand-wringing cowards, waiting for the next event to grab our attention.

Offline Toad

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Bush knew of Hijack threat before it happened
« Reply #79 on: May 18, 2002, 07:53:05 AM »
A little sleight of hand Target?

I think this one is mine:

"Unfortunately, the bill for buying peace by hosing a few cruise missiles off into empty camps in Afghanistan has now come due.... the "interest cost" was two buildings in NYC."

Now, please explain to me where this qualfies under "vilifying Clinton for not foreseeing the first WTC attack, etc. etc.", the part of Majic's post you answered with:

Midnight Target: "Please allow me to refresh some memories...no names just quotes:" ?

I think an objective reading of what I posted will find it is a criticism of Clinton's reprisal policy. It says nothing of the ability of the US/Clinton Administration/Intelligence Community to foresee and stop terrorist attacks.

So you're not really providing proof for your argument at all are you?

But I think you knew that.  :D
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Offline Toad

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Bush knew of Hijack threat before it happened
« Reply #80 on: May 18, 2002, 08:16:38 AM »
As far as the lack of "reasonable" discussion here I'll throw this in.

The amount and frequency of "ad hominem" arguments certainly doesn't contribute anything to "reasonable" discussion.

If we're not going to argue the point, why debate at all?

For the curious and uncertain amongst us:

Fallacy: Ad Hominem

Description of Ad Hominem

Translated from Latin to English, "Ad Hominem" means "against the man" or "against the person."

An Ad Hominem is a general category of fallacies in which a claim or argument is rejected on the basis of some irrelevant fact about the author of or the person presenting the claim or argument. Typically, this fallacy involves two steps. First, an attack against the character of person making the claim, her circumstances, or her actions is made (or the character, circumstances, or actions of the person reporting the claim). Second, this attack is taken to be evidence against the claim or argument the person in question is making (or presenting).

Further, the incidence of "name calling" here doesn't contribute much to the debate either.

As Kieran pointed out, the "name calling" is the antithesis of thorough logical debate. Rather than enhancing one's position, it seriously detracts from it. In fact, I suspect that the tactic makes most folks simply skip over the message and go on to the next one.

I know it has that effect on me, anyway. When I see this pointless, childish, "playground technique" I guess I automatically assume the poster has either no capability to rationally present an argument or is simply too immature to debate on fact. So, I just pass the message and go on to one that looks as if it were composed with at least a little maturity.
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!

Offline Eagler

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Bush knew of Hijack threat before it happened
« Reply #81 on: May 18, 2002, 09:44:15 AM »
the truth will come out showing the previous admin raped our countries intel community for 8 years, thus tying their hands & blinding them.

What intel did Bush miss?

That an African American converted Raghead that was so stupid he said he didn't care to land and takeoff only fly the plane? Or the group of ragheads in the midwest taking flying lessons of which none were of the 19 nutbags who crashed into the WTC


Oh yeah, of the 19 sand ppl who did crash into the WTC and Pentagon - only 3 were trained in the US to fly :rolleyes:

Yeah, let's blame Bush for something that occurred in the first 9 months of his admin - not the loser that had the job for the previous 8 years which allowed & caused the enviroment for this murderous act to first germinate then blossom into 9/11. :rolleyes:

Problem is Bush and his freakin "new tone" in DC is making him soft. He needs to come out and point the finger and show exactly how the corruption and lack of leadership in the Clinton admin set the stage for this debacle

Some of you guys are freakin amazing!
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Offline wsnpr

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Re: Bush knew of Hijack threat before it happened
« Reply #82 on: May 18, 2002, 10:47:59 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Ripsnort
http://www.nytimes.com/2002/05/16/politics/16INQU.html?ex=1022126400&en=39284647d5a85528&ei=5006&partner=ALTAVISTA1

Granted, it was "The threat of knowing Bin Laden wanted to hijack in the traditional sense, not knowing that suicide extremists would take part in the sneak attack..."

Do you think he's to blame or partially to blame for 9/11?

I probably would be classified as coming from the 'liberal' camp. However President Bush and members of his cabinet (given the nature of the warnings and conditions of the time) are not even partially to blame. The warnings were too vague and general to act upon more than they had been given the pre-9/11 attacks.
Curious to those that say otherwise, how would F.D.R's, Truman's, Kennedy's, Johnson's, Nixon's, Ford's, Carter's, Reagan's, Bush's, and Clinton's actions be any different given the same circumstances?

Offline wsnpr

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Bush knew of Hijack threat before it happened
« Reply #83 on: May 18, 2002, 10:55:00 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by H. Godwineson
I'd like to make several points about all this if I may:

1.  20/20 hindsight is a wonderful thing!

2.  The world is a big place, filled with nations and groups that hate us and are potential threats to our security.

3.  The United States has business concerns operating in every country on the globe, even in those nations that do not have our best interests at heart.

4.  Our security and intelligence agencies have been spread increasingly thin over the last decade to protect those interests.

5.  While our military and intelligence agencies have had their missions expanded greatly during the last ten years, budgets to support their activities have not grown to keep pace with that expansion.  Indeed, their budgets have been slashed by the previous administration.

6.  U.S. intelligence agencies have their hands full keeping track of all the threats to our nation's securities.  Before September 11, Osama Ben Laden was just one of many potential threats.

7.  The number of intelligence reports that have to be analyzed to develop strategies to counter these threats must be staggering.  The analysis of this information to determine which of these threats is the most significant poses problems that are often insuperable.

8.  The report about the WTC attack currently under discussion pointed out a potential threat, but was not specific about the form that the threat might take.  It only mentions that Arab immigrants of questionable character were taking flying lessons under suspicious circumstances.  Nothing really new about this, after all, for Arab terrorists have been hi-jacking airliners for more than 30 years.

9.  The President, when notified of the potential threat, and without any specifics to determine the actual nature of the threat, notified the appropriate security agencies and put them on alert.

10.  When similar threats have arisen in the past, previous administrations have acted in exactly the same manner.


Now for the critics making snide remarks about the President's actions under these circumstances I would like to pose a question.

Had you been in the White House under similar circumstances, and without the benefit of 20/20 hindsight since 9/11, what would you have done differently to counter the threat?  Remember now, you must forget everything you have learned about the terrorists and their activities since the WTC was attacked.


Regards, Shuckins


Agreed.
Another note. Perhaps point #2 is the direct result of points #3 and #4.

Offline aknimitz

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Bush knew of Hijack threat before it happened
« Reply #84 on: May 18, 2002, 10:57:09 AM »
Sikboy ... whose resopnsibility is it to make sure that the FBI and CIA work together to provide accurate and timely information?  And function as they are supposed to function?  Everyone has a boss, someone to whom they must account to.  I couldnt agree more with Weazel's "The Buck Stops Here" ...

Nim

Offline wsnpr

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Bush knew of Hijack threat before it happened
« Reply #85 on: May 18, 2002, 11:01:06 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Toad
As far as the lack of "reasonable" discussion here I'll throw this in.

The amount and frequency of "ad hominem" arguments certainly doesn't contribute anything to "reasonable" discussion.

If we're not going to argue the point, why debate at all?

For the curious and uncertain amongst us:

Fallacy: Ad Hominem

Description of Ad Hominem

Translated from Latin to English, "Ad Hominem" means "against the man" or "against the person."

An Ad Hominem is a general category of fallacies in which a claim or argument is rejected on the basis of some irrelevant fact about the author of or the person presenting the claim or argument. Typically, this fallacy involves two steps. First, an attack against the character of person making the claim, her circumstances, or her actions is made (or the character, circumstances, or actions of the person reporting the claim). Second, this attack is taken to be evidence against the claim or argument the person in question is making (or presenting).

Further, the incidence of "name calling" here doesn't contribute much to the debate either.

As Kieran pointed out, the "name calling" is the antithesis of thorough logical debate. Rather than enhancing one's position, it seriously detracts from it. In fact, I suspect that the tactic makes most folks simply skip over the message and go on to the next one.

I know it has that effect on me, anyway. When I see this pointless, childish, "playground technique" I guess I automatically assume the poster has either no capability to rationally present an argument or is simply too immature to debate on fact. So, I just pass the message and go on to one that looks as if it were composed with at least a little maturity.


I agree 100% with you TOAD. Great observation. SALUTE

Offline wsnpr

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Bush knew of Hijack threat before it happened
« Reply #86 on: May 18, 2002, 11:12:47 AM »
I think the main problem with our intel community, particullarly the CIA is the low amount of funds actually used for intell gathering and analysis. It seems they use most funds and personnel for covert ops and destabilization of those governments/individuals that don't happen to have OUR best business interests at heart.

Offline Shuckins

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Bush knew of Hijack threat before it happened
« Reply #87 on: May 18, 2002, 01:05:31 PM »
While I have Republican leanings I do not belong to the party.  I have voted for conservative candidates from both major parties, mainly because I am against government waste in spending and excessive taxation ( A major concern since my take-home pay is around 27,000 a year!).

As far as any criticism of Bill Clinton is concerned, let me simply say that he brought much of it on himself.  I can feel some of you bristling already, so before I go any further let me state that I am from Arkansas, I have been keeping track of the man for far longer than most of his supporters who live outside of the state, he and I have a few mutual friends, and that the explanation for many of his scandalous actions requires a knowledge of the Arkansas political scene.

Why would a man of Clinton's obvious talents allow himself to be sucked into a scandal that would threaten his presidency?  The answer is really quite simple;  he is a product of the "good-ole-boy" political system of Arkansas politics.  Many of you are unaware that the Democratic party has controlled Arkansas' State Legislature without interruption since the end of the Reconstruction Period.  Even in the years when public opinion turned from the Democrats to other parties they managed to retain control of the state government.  You are not able to do this by playing fair.  You do it by making ballot boxes from opposition districts disappear.  Or digging up dirt on your opponents.  Or employing financial muscle to to turn the tide of the election.  You do it by covering up scandals and standing up for fellow party members of questionable character (He may be the scum of the universe, but he's OUR scum!)

In recent decades the situation has begun to change...but old habits die hard.

In 1990, in his last election for the office of governor, in a race he had to win if he wished to run for president in 1992 without having egg on his face, Clinton was rapidly losing ground in the polls to his Republican opponent, Sheffield Nelson.  Some years before this, Nelson had been embroiled in a scandal involving his chairmanship of a public utility commission.  The company which the commission regulated had moved its headquarters out of Little Rock to Texas.  The State Legislature appointed a committee to investigate the commission's actions and reached the conclusion that Nelson had had no direct connection with the company's decision to relocate outside the state and was innocent of any wrongdoing.  Case closed.

Or it should have been.  With two weeks to go in the election of 1990, and with the race rapidly becoming a dead heat, Clinton had the Attorney General's office reopen the case against Nelson.  John Robert Starr, editor of the state's largest daily newspaper, and a supporter of Clinton, was flabbergasted that he would attempt something this brazen.  In a telephone conversation with Clinton, Starr asked him if he understood the meaning of the phrase "abuse of power."  Clinton merely laughed.  

Starr withdrew his support of Clinton.  Immediately after the election, which Clinton won, the investigation of Nelson was ended.

Clinton's foibles with the ladies while governor were also well known.  Campaign workers had to cover for him when Hillary made surprise visits to his campaign headquarters while Bill was there with the local "talent."  Such events may be amusing when they involve a mere governor, but such actions by a President are reckless, foolish, and potentially dangerous.  If memory serves, JFK was involved at one point during his administration with a blond bombshell who later turned out to be an agent of an East German intelligence agent.  Monica wasn't a foreign agent, but she might have been.

For those who have trouble believing Paula Jones' accusations because she fits the "trailer trash" image I would like to point out the following;  

1.  Clinton prefers oral sex.
2.  For that purpose, a mouth is a mouth.
3.  If caught, he uses the argument..."Who are you going to believe...me or Her?  How can you possibly believe that I would become involved in any situation with her?"  His defenders have used the same argument.  "Just look at her.  Why would he become involved with someone so unattractive?"

Leaving his political actions out of the discussion for the moment I would like to argue that these are major character flaws, unworthy of the President of the United States.  Sure, he had some successes as President.  All Presidents do.  But should the man be defended no matter what?  Damn the torpedoes and full speed ahead?!  Forget about the FBI dossiers of Republicans in Congress that were turned over to the Clinton administration for no legitimate purpose?  Allow him to continue the same dirty tricks he engaged in as governor of Arkansas?

One of my dearest friends is an elderly lady who was one of Clinton's secretaries while he was governor of Arkansas.  He and her son were friends during their college years.  Clinton sometimes came home with him to visit on the weekends.  She has always been one of his staunch supporters.  But she told me that she couldn't defend some of the things he was doing as President.

Leaving all of that aside, let me now say that the one action by Clinton I consider to be the most indefensible was his slashing of the budgets for the military and our intelligence services.  This indicated to me that he didn't understand that the main duty of the Federal Government is to maintain the security of the nation and its people.  At times his foreign policy seemed to consist of good feelings, gossamer wings, and fairy dust.  The terrorist threat had existed for some time before he became President, but the threat grew to maturity during his watch and reached its fullest potential in the ninth month of a new President's first year in office.

Why should Bush be held accountable for 9/11?  Nine months is barely enough time to begin to gather the reins of power into one's hands, much less gain insight into all the potential threats to the nation's security.

I reiterate what I said in my earlier post...given the information available to him in the month before the 9/11 attack, Bush reacted in the only way open to him... he alerted the appropriate agencies and then trusted them to do their job.

To have been able to do more he would have had to be clairvoyant.  

For the critics I repeat what I said before...
20/20 hindsight is a wonderful thing!

Regards, Shuckins

Offline Sikboy

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Bush knew of Hijack threat before it happened
« Reply #88 on: May 18, 2002, 02:07:21 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by aknimitz
Sikboy ... whose resopnsibility is it to make sure that the FBI and CIA work together to provide accurate and timely information?  And function as they are supposed to function?  Everyone has a boss, someone to whom they must account to.  I couldnt agree more with Weazel's "The Buck Stops Here" ...

Nim


Nimitz,

The FBI and CIA do not, as a rule coordinate. The FBI is mandated to operate domestically (although withe globalization, they have been sticking their toes in the deep end more and more) while the CIA is prohibited from working domestically. The fear of an all knowing all seeing Big brother (amung other reasons) convinced the US to divide out the Intel services into several different organizations (here is the most recend executive order on that I believe

Again, I don't think you can "blame" anyone for these peices of information not being connected, given the amount of infromation (credible and not) coming through the pipes. However, Congress is charged with oversight of these organizations (as per EO 12333 cited above), so you might consider looking in that direction.

To summorize: The Intel Community was functioning as it was supposed to, but the Information was too vague to be used to make a solid case. Only with the benefit of hindsight do the peices easily fall together.

Don't get me wrong, Bush has pissed me off pleanty in these past 16 months. Pulling out of Kyoto and the ABM treaty didn't make me happy (and if some of you liked those moves, good for you, start another topic). But this just doesn't seem like a big deal at this point, Although further investigation is warrented.

-Sikboy
You: Blah Blah Blah
Me: Meh, whatever.

Offline Lance

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Bush knew of Hijack threat before it happened
« Reply #89 on: May 18, 2002, 04:32:56 PM »
What baffles me is how conservatives cannot see the parallels between what is happening now and the attacks made on Clinton during his presidency.

From the day Clinton set foot in the Whitehouse, every turd that floated down the D.C. sewer was picked up and hurled at him by some conservative to see if it would stick.  From allegations of financial fraud to murder.  One finally did, and somehow that justifies all of the other attempts that were made to politically assasinate a President of the U.S.?  I guess it makes sense if you believe that you are somehow justified in imposing your preferred political ideology on the country irregardless of the one chosen by the will of the people, heh.

Well, you reap what you sow.  The Republican party set a new low-standard for acceptable political tactics during Clinton's terms and now the Democrats are simply using some of them themselves.  I'm not happy about it, but that is what is going on here.   Conservatives can't very well squeak now when it was perfectly justifiable for them to do the same things when the last President was in office.  

Doing something for the national best interest?  What a joke.  That has been absent from the thought process of both parties for a long time now.  It has been replaced with "win if you can, but if you can't, then take the other guy's bellybutton OUT."  Who gives a damn about the wishes of the people as expressed at the voting booth?  

Not that the political hacks know it.  They are convinced that they are doing the country a great service with all of this.  WE KNOW WHAT IS BEST FOR AMERICA!  All they have really accomplished is an erosion of our faith in our government and the people that run it.

Politicians are all sick, twisted diddlys.