Author Topic: HT talks 4XBuffs  (Read 2190 times)

Offline Wanker

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« Reply #30 on: May 17, 2002, 09:40:16 AM »
This feature will be huge for the scenarios, where it has historically been difficult to attract large numbers of buff drivers. If we run into a situation where half the buff drivers are no-shows, then each buff driver takes 2 buffs instead of one.

Offline Zippatuh

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« Reply #31 on: May 17, 2002, 09:40:24 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Lephturn
...Problems with the current setup IMO are that the guns will often fire through the fuselage.  That really sucks.  That and the gun positions being really tough to kill.

That said... I'm sure HTC will balance this so it's reasonable.  The key will be how all the guns are slaved and if they keep them from firing through the fuselage combined with friendly fire within the formation.

Either way, it's going to be VERY interesting!


Agreed.  Being able to shoot through the fuselage is the only thing that concerns me.  I don’t believe hitting a drone should cause killshooter damage but it should cause damage to the drone.  If it ends up that the gunner can fire through the fuselage of all the drones that could be a problem.

As already stated though, this should be very cool to see.  I really want to see that large formation, below me of course :D.

“Very close” on the terrain, outstanding!

Offline K West

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« Reply #32 on: May 17, 2002, 09:42:32 AM »
"HT has specifically said that there's nothing NOTHING porked in buff leathality or gunnery."

 IMO there isn't. The problem IMO could be found with the person complaining of any such thing. Most often it's simply due to a lack of viable attack tactics which is due to low experience. People might notice that most folks who claim buff guns are uber and bomber lethality is  p_o_r_k_e_d  have less than 6 mos online in AH.

  Westy
« Last Edit: May 17, 2002, 11:11:09 AM by K West »

Offline MrRiplEy[H]

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« Reply #33 on: May 17, 2002, 09:47:34 AM »
K West I have slightly more than 6 months online in AH and WB and I still say it's porked.
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Offline Beefcake

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« Reply #34 on: May 17, 2002, 09:50:53 AM »
Gun postions on buffs are hard to kill? I laugh at that. Yesterday I was attacked by a spit who made a GREAT strafing pass on my B17. In one pass he killed my top, Right waist, Ball, and  chin guns. Now before you say "oh it was just luck", this happens every freaking day to me in the MA. IMHO Gunner postions are weak.


Also lets look at the B17 kill stats so far this tour.


The B-17G has 4096 kills and has been killed 5966 times.

Hrm, thats really odd. If the B17 was such a deathstar like alot of pilots make it out to be, then why does it still have a Negative K/D?

:)
Retired Bomber Dweeb - 71 "Eagle" Squadron RAF

Offline Beefcake

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« Reply #35 on: May 17, 2002, 09:58:09 AM »
MrRipley the reason buff guns seem so "uber" most of the time is not because they're porked, its because of "physics". You see, when you attack a buff from the rear you are flying -INTO- his bullets and he is flying -AWAY- from yours. So in a way, his bullets will hit you with more force and your bullets will hit with less. So it gives the false impression that buff guns are powerful and that they're invincable, when really they're not. There is a post in the Gameplay forum that has the formula and everything, though I don't know where it is.
Retired Bomber Dweeb - 71 "Eagle" Squadron RAF

Offline Revvin

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« Reply #36 on: May 17, 2002, 10:15:24 AM »
Quote
I still say it's porked


Easy to say...now prove it. HTC are a reasonable bunch, if you can offer up some evidence to prove they are porked they will listen. Try a search on these very forums for explanations from HTC about the buff gunnery. Beefcake explains it above but you'll find posts from Hitech himself explaining the buff guns.

Offline Wotan

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« Reply #37 on: May 17, 2002, 10:16:07 AM »
The only problem with buff gunners is their accurracy. Its too stable a platform even when in banks or rolls.

They nbeed to be given iron sites like the 110c and some sort of "shake" modelled.

The guns need to be abled to be disabled more easily. powered turrets ought to quit functioning in hydraulics are hit.

Also large buff formations are lag fests. They were in the days of the hq raiders and they were in BW. There needs to be some balance. Hopefully there will be a perk value for the 4 buff thing.

Will the buffs fly a predetermined flight path? or can i guy up 4 noe buffs and tool around ack starrin?

Its definately a good thing

btw wbs has had ai buff formations.

Offline Flossy

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« Reply #38 on: May 17, 2002, 10:38:36 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Imp
Most buff sorties I have made in AH were without a gunner so how am i suppose to defend 4 by myself?
One of the things HiTech said in the arena was that the Pilot would be able to gun as well as having a gunner....  :D
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Offline Flossy

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« Reply #39 on: May 17, 2002, 10:42:14 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by mason22
here's another question:

How many of you "Buff Hunters" fly in pairs?

the buff pilot can only aim at one AC at a time. just a thought.  ;)
LOL.... with the Pilot being able to gun as well as having a gunner on board, this is obviously going to change....  :p
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Offline Dead Man Flying

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« Reply #40 on: May 17, 2002, 10:50:07 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by MrRiplEy[H]
K West I have slightly more than 6 months online in AH and WB and I still say it's porked.


Having way more than six months online in AH and AW, I say that there's nothing wrong with it.

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Offline Taiaha

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« Reply #41 on: May 17, 2002, 11:26:51 AM »
If there's more complexity to the buff modelling, in addition to the 4 ship box, that will be fine; as a buff fan and someone who likes the challenge of trying to shoot them down, I'm looking forward to it.  Frame rate will be the major issue, but personally, I couldn't give a rat's bellybutton for all those complaining or bragging about the uber-uber potential of this.  

First of all, even putting four Lancs in formation isn't going to do much for their survivability.  Their guns are weak and they have no belly defence.  The 4 ship thing will simply turn them from a tasty snack into a mobile buffet.

It's a mistake to believe that the b-17 is so uber, and that it will now be unstoppably uber.  When flying 17s I've always had a better than even chance of shooting down attackers, but it's always been against guys who persist, against all evidence to the contrary, in making dead astern attacks, or head on attacks (OK, I know, sometimes you make mistakes and end up there, do that a lot myself).  The most fun I've had in 17s has, paradoxically, been against those guys flying Luftie machines in particular who really know their trade, who take time to set up for the high side attack, the slash, or the death dive from above.  Then I know I'm in trouble, and if I manage to shoot one of them down, I really feel it means something.

Is all this going to change with the new features?  Only in numbers, not in fundamentals.  If you want to be the lone pilot that takes on the bomber formation, more power to your elbow--you'll probably find out why so many very good LW pilots died unnecessary deaths in the last year of the war.  You'll need multiple interceptors, who know intercept tactics.  Will that be everyone's cup of tea?  Of course not.  But I can see it is going to make for some epic battles in the high blue.  Four 190s against four buffs say?  Even money.  All the talk about 48 guns is BS.  Just as when you attack a lone 17 now, you can never get more than 4 guns firing at you, and you try and maximize your attack so that you have only 3 or 3.  In the same way, you  aren't going to be able to bring all 48 guns to bear.  Plus, there is the added constraint that if the 4-ship box is really tight, you are going to be unsighted a lot of the time (it's going to depend how exactly this is implemented, of course; some people have already raised questions about whether the guns will check fire and/or damage other ships in formation; it will also be interesting to see if you are going to be confined to the lead ship until you're whacked, in which case , even with two people gunning, its still going to be more difficult to track your attackers).

4 JU 88s?  See notes for Lanc.

The ones that have me woried are the B26 and the KI.  They are going to be a little harder to shoot down when they have numbers.

I'm looking forward to trying to attack these formations as much as I am flying in them.

Offline Kuben

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« Reply #42 on: May 17, 2002, 11:40:46 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Beefcake
Also lets look at the B17 kill stats so far this tour.

The B-17G has 4096 kills and has been killed 5966 times.

Hrm, thats really odd. If the B17 was such a deathstar like alot of pilots make it out to be, then why does it still have a Negative K/D?

:)


Are you serious?  I have seen time and time again people take off in B-17s headed for the nearest base and they bomb it at 2k to 4k above the ack and get shreaded.  Remember, it takes time to get a loaded B-17 up to proper bombing altitude and many many people don't do it.
I think this explains the 1870 more deaths, this and the fact that people use them as "ack" while a base is getting vulched.

Kuben

Offline Karnak

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« Reply #43 on: May 17, 2002, 12:58:05 PM »
I'm sorry, but to all the people who say bombers aren't easy kills, you're just doing wrong.

The most powerful bomber in AH, the B-17G, I view as a nearly free kill if I want to take the time to position myself correctly.  I don't even need another fighter in the area, the B-17G has a 90-95% chance of losing to me.

The Ju88A-4, Lancaster Mk III and Ki-67 all lose thier guns at what seems like the drop of a hat.  Nearly every time my Lanc gets hit I lose the tail turret.  Last time my Ki-67 was hit was by a short burst from a Bf109E-4, I lost every gun position except for the waist guns.  Gun positions on bombers die just fine.
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Offline MrRiplEy[H]

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« Reply #44 on: May 17, 2002, 01:34:22 PM »
Beefcake all the spits except mk.I have 2x20mm hispano's on board. Wipe the foam off your mouth and read again.

Lancaster is an easy kill most of the time because it lacks the punch and bottom turret.. But a B17 is another story.

I have never been attacked in a B17 (those that came by surprise not counting) that I wouldn't have been able to at least seriously damage or kill the attacker. So at best I consider it a suicide strike to attack a B17 that sees you coming and has a decent gunner.

Once I was attacked by two 262's and a 152 simultaneously over a5 mindanao.. I smoked both 262 and forced them to rtb and killed the 152 instantly. Later the 262 died on landing so I scored on him also. The altitude was 27k..

If that's not a screaming example of the B17 leathality I dont know what is. I'm not even an experienced gunner and I rarely fly buffs myself except when I have to be afk a lot and therefore can spend a lot of time climbing. Still my last 3 tours I have 1:1 k/d in all bombers by average (not counting ju88 which is dead meat on the table.) A little higher in B26.. That naturally counts the sorties where I've been killed by ack etc. also.

If the buff leathality really is on its historical level, why are there numerous fighter pilot stories written that indicate bombers as slow, steady flying targets in the air? Easily picked apart by the attacking fighters, first kill gunners and then snap them down one engine at a time. Only in 20 buff boxes they presented viable danger, single bombers weren't even considered a danger.

That doesn't sound at all like what we have in AH (B26,B17)..

Even if nothing else is porked in the buffs, the gunner model is. When all gunners target exactly the same spot (and in the case of B17 are able to shoot at it) it delivers an unrealistic amount of fire to the attacker. In reality the gunners tracked the attackers independently and in most cases they were shooting with completely different accuracy, lead and sometimes missing the target completely even if his gun could have tracked the enemy.

There's a difference with 2 .50 tracking you and 8 .50..

What goes with the physics the speed difference can't explain it all. How come it's far more likely to survive a HO shot from a .50 armed fighter than it is to survive a hit from a buff on his dead six? If your physics would be accurate the HO fighter should have ten times the kinetic energy in his bullets compared to the buff.
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