Author Topic: HT talks 4XBuffs (Read 2453 times)

MuadDib of Dune · « **Reply #45 on:** May 17, 2002, 01:48:20 PM »

Thnx for the reply leph. I guess the reason I didnt consider the stated purpose of no dispertion on buff defensive guns was because to me, at least, it seems I would rather get prattled by few of the many rounds wobbling through dispertion at 1000 yards as opposed to getting zinged by 20-30 rounds traveling down the same beam. In this sense at least, AH has lazer gunnery I guess.

No doubt HTC has done the testing and edtermined that their particular choice of buff gunning requires no dispertion. In any even, its just a game so I try to relax.

However, I have found that the mannable ack guns at fields also do not demonstrate any perceptable dispertion whereas the osti, just a manned ack on wheels, does demonstrate a very healthy dispertion. Come to think of it, does the 40mm on the PTs have any dispertion?

I guess in the end these types of gameplay concessions are what really seperates the simulation from the game.

In any event ~~HTC I love it and thats what counts.~~

K West · « **Reply #46 on:** May 17, 2002, 02:13:23 PM »

So this is what experiencing dejavu is like . MrRipley every one of your points and questions has been answered ad-naseum by Pyro and HiTech over the past two years. If you've been here for more than six months then you'd have been witness to at least three go-rounds in the gameplay forum alone.

Yes, there is some gameplay concessions with the buff guns. We have no "otto" and the pilot has a choice of doing all by themself or getting one extra crew member to man guns. But any concesssion are no where as bad as a few folks would make it appear. Seeing the K-D's of the differet bombers, how thier are literally no bomber squads in AH and also more folks responded with finding no problem with buff guns when shooting them down versus those who do. I personally think a fair compromise was reached by HTC. And why bomber guns hit harder than the same guns mounted on a fighter in most cases has been explained more times than should have been necessary. But they do NOT converge on one point like fighter guns can

Simply put there is nothing historically accurate about "flying" online in any of the AH online arenas. Saying something like "does this sound like what we have in AH" just doesn't hold water because AH is built on data and recorded fact versus "feel" and old memories. AH special events are about as close as we can get and even then it's pathgetically comical to compare those (or any other game/sims arena/event/setup) to any kind of real life/death combat.
My point is that it does not work to introduce the historical yard stick where it won't work. Most historical "this is the way it was" anecdotes just won't work in any online environment because we're not there using the real equipment nor enduring combat under real life conditions.

Lastly, kudos for killing two 262's and a 152!

One could wonder how the pile-its got thier perk points for them if they could not down a even a solitary bomber though. Even more so when thier were three of them and one of you. Would have loved to seen the film of that one and poke fun at the fighter pile-its.

And fwiw, it does sound historically accurate to fly a lone buff at 27k and then get attacked by three late war uber planes!

Westy

(cracks me up about those three dorks and thier perk rides lost...

)

MrRiplEy[H] · « **Reply #47 on:** May 17, 2002, 02:23:38 PM »

Westy: I have seen the discussions you mentioned but those that I've seen have only handled the dead-6 attacks compared to buff shooting backwards. I've never seen a comparison based on HO jug vs buff guns for example.

In that fight I mentioned the other 262 didn't lose his perkies he just rtb'd with two smoking engines.

I don't attack buffs that are over 25k anymore because it takes half an hour to set up an attack at that alt and even then it's 80:20 in buffs advantage. He outturns, outaccelerates and outguns your fighter at that altitude. Many 30k attacks I've made have ended with the buff losing patience and manouvering violently enough to break his wing off and plummet to his death. That happens only if the buff goes to pilot position though, the rudder controls keep the plane steady as a train. As many times the buff managed to ping me from distance forcing me to land.

Very rarely I've got a chance to actually shoot them down. Probably because I suck at buff hunting.

K West · « **Reply #48 on:** May 17, 2002, 02:35:05 PM »

(btw, not trying to be argumentative. just offering a counter balance to the discussion)

"Probably because I suck at buff hunting."

Ha! No one sucks at buff hunting. There is no endeavor more nobler to pursue in AH.

If I can shake this rust from my bones and get some airtime soon I'ld be happy (and other folks too I imagine .... Lazs? ) to help via films or winging it would be my honor and pleaure to help. I think ALL of us will need it when the new bomber feature comes out

(so many targets, so little ammo!)

~~Westy~~

AKcurly · « **Reply #49 on:** May 17, 2002, 02:41:54 PM »

HIstorical question ...

Suppose a single 109 (your favorite variant) attacked a buff flight. How often did the 109 survive?

I don't really know, but my guess is "not often."

Didn't they attack buffs with large numbers of fighters?

Why do guys make single plane attacks against buffs and expect to win?

The buff gun platform is nice and stable; it's firing multiple 50cals; why would any sane person attack one and expect to survive?

In the main arena, have you ever seen 5 planes attack one buff? Have you ever seen the buff win such an attack? I haven't.

curly

SKurj · « **Reply #50 on:** May 17, 2002, 02:44:18 PM »

Now if ALL guns are slaved for gunning...

If pilot and Gunner are firing which guns are slaved to which gunner? +)

I dove on a formation of 3 buffs in p47d25 last night. On First pass no kills, second pass 1 buff down, i lost 2 guns. 3rd pass no kills but i think he got me smoking. 4th pass #2 buff down and i went pop just before he did.

oh yeah... and the frame rate concern is a good one... even 8 buffs will cause serious fps hits i imagine...

I also believe it will take a few patches to get bomb damage/dispersion etc tweaked

SKurj

MrRiplEy[H] · « **Reply #51 on:** May 17, 2002, 02:51:48 PM »

Akcurly I read today a story of german 109 pilots attacking b17 formations.

They attacked a formation of 100+ b17's with 38 109's. That means less than one fighter per bomber.

SKurj · « **Reply #52 on:** May 17, 2002, 02:55:33 PM »

u really think that each 109 chose a different buff to attack Ripley????

1 v 1 both planes undamaged i'd be hard pressed to choose a winner in reality. Hmm just like AH +)

SKurj

AKcurly · « **Reply #53 on:** May 17, 2002, 02:57:14 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by MrRiplEy[H]

If the buff leathality really is on its historical level, why are there numerous fighter pilot stories written that indicate bombers as slow, steady flying targets in the air? Easily picked apart by the attacking fighters,

MrRiplEy,

I think the operative phrase is "attacking fighters." If 3 skillful main arena fighter pilots attack one buff, the buff is dead meat.

If 2 262s and 1 TA-152 attack a buff from a superior position, the buff will be dead meat. If they make a climbing approach, the fighters are going to lose.

Do you know why the idiots (single plane) that attacked a b17 from an inferior position didn't write stories of their attacks? Answer: All died. In my opinion, it was genetic evolution in action.

curly

Revvin · « **Reply #54 on:** May 17, 2002, 03:00:11 PM »

There are a few pilots I've seen make very good passes on buffs that have resulted in me not getting a single ping on them and I'm not a particularly bad gunner. Ask Wilbuz to record a sortie next time he attacks a buff..its poetry in motion.

MrRiplEy[H] · « **Reply #55 on:** May 17, 2002, 03:03:43 PM »

AKcurly the WW2 time record in kills/time was done by a lone 109 pilot attacking 20 soviet medium bombers. He killed 6 of them in 30 minutes and rtb'd with no ammo left. He did not get damaged by the buff gunners regardless of the fact that he closed in to 20 yards to shoot the engines.

whels · « **Reply #56 on:** May 17, 2002, 03:08:37 PM »

did u know the US 8th Airforce almost stopped daylight bombing over germany in ww2? why? they had no escorts, the enemy fighters with no enemy fighters to worry about were slaughtering
the B17s. without the intro of the P51 as long range escort, the daylight raids would have stopped. the b17s guns in RL were no match for fighter attacks, otherwise they wouldnt have needed
the p51s would they?

unlike AH, in RL a lone b17 vs a lone fighter, fighter wins. in AH
b17 wins more then fighter.

in ww2 it was usually, a few hundered to a thousand buffs with 300 or so escrots vs couple hundred enemy fighters.

there were times a buff stream was like 10 miles wide and 25 miles long.

whels

Quote

Originally posted by AKcurly
HIstorical question ...

Suppose a single 109 (your favorite variant) attacked a buff flight. How often did the 109 survive?

I don't really know, but my guess is "not often."

Didn't they attack buffs with large numbers of fighters?

Why do guys make single plane attacks against buffs and expect to win?

The buff gun platform is nice and stable; it's firing multiple 50cals; why would any sane person attack one and expect to survive?

In the main arena, have you ever seen 5 planes attack one buff? Have you ever seen the buff win such an attack? I haven't.

curly

CavemanJ · « **Reply #57 on:** May 17, 2002, 03:27:57 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by Wilbus
It's atleast 64 now you 08

<--- Kommer till Stockholm snart, 24:e Juni rycker jag in i Kungsängen.

You can see 64, but severe micro warps start at 30 within icon range for aircraft 31+

That's why those huge tiffie raids are so successful, they're allready together in icon range so they stay smooth, but anyone else coming into the cloud (ie the defenders) see massive micro warps.

And beef, it's random drift. The only skill you'll be delevoping is guessing which way the ball's gonna roll.

Nifty · « **Reply #58 on:** May 17, 2002, 03:28:02 PM »

Let's assume for a moment that buffs were terribly vulnerable in real life, and that their guns couldn't do jack against enemy fighters. Put THAT buff model in AH. How many buff sorties would there be in AH then? I'd say less than c202 sorties... Hardly anyone would take up a flying deathtrap.

Any concessions to buff modeling and buff guns are gameplay concessions to make them more survivable, mainly more enjoyable for those flying the buffs. They are far from uber. Only uber if they are extremely high or you are in a non-buff hunter plane (Spit I, Hurri I, Zeke, etc.) They are meat on the table 1 v 1 to the patient fighter pilot.

Tac · « **Reply #59 on:** May 17, 2002, 03:29:29 PM »

Have you also considered curly, that the gunners on a buff in WW2 would be killed almost instantly if a fighter got a burst into him?

Sit in a tail of a buff in AH and it will take nearly half your ammo into the buff's tail before you can kill the tail gunner..and even then the player is STILL in the tail gun, but he's really shooting from the ball and top turret shooting through the fuselage.