with new buff formation tool, time to "fix" their guns..

[HABICHT]

..on an realistic setting.
lets have the same guns in buffs like in the fighters.
with the formation, they have a chance to survive the run.

i think, no fighter pilot/s will attack a 4buff formation with the
current "ueber" buff gun settings.

HT, pls make them realistic in 1.10


habicht

[Toad]

Just don't believe HT do you? How many times is he going to have to post it?


General Forums > Gameplay feedback/issues > What is the trick to buff gunnery?

HiTech:

Once again you keep on harping on somthing that you are incorrect on, ive said it multiple times the buf guns are the same as the fighter guns, now get over it, or move on. When some one ask a simple question and you acctualy feel the need to put your own little whinie in the response you are realy damaging to aces high. You will either change this or I will change it for you.

Buff guns have dispersion. Test it with .target
Buff guns lethality is exactly the same as the guns on the fighters.
Buff guns do NOT have a convergance.

[later post/same thread]

Yes and no on the same range, The balistics are identical, but do to drag , the range is farther shooting back then when you shoot forward.

[later post/same thread]

That simply because only the shooter ever sees dispersion stuff.

As for dispersion paterns we have data on real dispersion paterns from each gun of a b17. If anything our paterns are slightly bigger. If you wish to see the paterns take up a b17 off line and use the .target command.

[/b]

So, what part of "ballistics are identical" don't you understand?

[Revvin]

This 'buff guns are porked' is getting really old now. How many times do you guys have to be told by HTC himself? or is this just another conspiracy?

Sometimes I worry about the numbers of posts started (usually by the same small group of people) will maybe influence HTC into making concessiosn their way but unlike other sims I have more faith in HTC not to bow to pressure from the same minority even if they do spit their dummies out and threaten to leave which is often the next step for them.

[whels]

Originally posted by Revvin
This 'buff guns are porked' is getting really old now. How many times do you guys have to be told by HTC himself? or is this just another conspiracy?

Sometimes I worry about the numbers of posts started (usually by the same small group of people) will maybe influence HTC into making concessiosn their way but unlike other sims I have more faith in HTC not to bow to pressure from the same minority even if they do spit their dummies out and threaten to leave which is often the next step for them.

how many post did it take o convince HT group the niki needed checking, till they did and fixed some problems in it.

how many posts did it take before they finally check Chog and found it was light 300 lbs? and fixed it.

how many posts of other suspected problems or errors did it take , till HT and group finally went and rechecked their numbers
they claimed to correct before. and went rechecked and found
them to be incorrect?


some will whine no matter what. some of what u precieve as whines turned out to be correct and got problems/errors
fixed.


but ive yet to see na sayers like u come back when the complaint
was proven correct and say u know Joe was right there was a problem there. good thing he brought it u.

whels

[Mathman]

... and everytime that there was a problem with a plane/gun/whatever, someone posted proof of the problem and what the real plane/gun/whatever was like.

Whels, what if someone were to prove that the guns are right in this case?  Do you think a whiner (don't really think Habicht is whining, beating a dead horse - yes, but whining, no) will come here and say "Gee, I guess I was wrong.  The guns are fine the way they are."

It works both ways.

[Steven]

<>  -HTC

There's a fix for you.

[SirLoin]

I think because there is no convergence that people think they are lazer guns...It's just like the p38 when u use the 4 50cals.It cuts like a lazer too because the bullets don't disperse,if 1 bullet hits they all hit.

[Kaz]

mm porked buff guns sexy  but seriously i don't think the guns need to be changed. what should be done is changing tactics when attacking buffs. i find attacking head on is great when you can manage to do that. also that flying alongside then turning in and spraying the side works very well coz it's very hard to track a fighter doing that. what else ah yes diving from above or zoom climbing from below. in otherwords never attack a buff from the rear

now for the part that i think needs to be fixed. the buffs at high alt outperform the fighters!! from what i've heard the operational alts were in the mid to high 20k ft range sooo we all know fighters engaged them at these alts and i doubt very much from what i've read seen and heard that they'd outperform any fighter.

[Lephturn]

I understand their is no convergence on the gun sets themselves... but I'm just wondering how the different gun banks in a buff align themselves.  IE, if I'm firing from a waist gun, and the tail, and top turret are also firing... at what point does the fire from those three different banks converge?  Any of you buff gunners have a handle on how this works?

I think all the perceptions of the buff guns being too strong come from the fact that a single gunner can fire multiple banks of guns all at once.  It means that if you get hit with 1 .50, you get hit with a pile of them.  Normally, this wouldn't be the case, as you'd only be likely to get winged by one turret/gun at a time.  Add to that a lack of vibration\movement from the gunner's perspective, and you can see how even if the .50 cals are modelled exactly right (and I think the .50's in AH are modelled very accurately), the gameplay may not match your idea of how a similar situation should play out.

Lephturn

[Creamo]

Geez habicht, don’t you know you should have been aware of AH ballistics’ by reading 100,000 posts instead of a simple manual that explains these things?

Your frustration might be a combination of things like bad tactics and impatience, which ultimately gets me in Dora steam maker mode vs. buffs, but Wab offers something just as viable imo.

1. Bullet dispersion on the buff guns appears to be correct.
2. Effective range of the buff bullets appear to be correct.

I'm convinced that the problem lies in the unnatural stability of the buff gun sights. I was watching something on the history channel today and they were showing b17 footage. That gunner was jiggling on the end of that .50 like he had hold of a jack-hammer.

Take off in a pony and zoom into the gun sight and fire away. The site picture jiggles all over the place. The buff guns (even turrets)should do no less. Any gun controlled by hand should shake a fair bit more still.

Without the proper vibration, the buff gunner can zoom in at maximum magnification and track a target at 1.5k with butter smooth computer controlled precision. That give him enough advantage that it appear the effective range is too far.

Its not the ballistics. Its the unrealistically stable sight picture.

Not to mention all the guns seem to know exactly what fighter to shoot at and all at the precise same time.

Although I understand HT’s explanation of the ballistics, I find it silly you have impatiently throw out his explanation like someone that doesn’t live on the BBS should know it as gospel Toad.
(Not to mention it does nothing to address the gameplay aspects of the entire situation.)

[Beefcake]

Everyone says that "buff" guns are porked. Now I ask:

Are the guns on the Ju88 porked? What about the TBM? IL2? Ki67? The Lanc? I wish people would start defining what plane is porked rather than just "buff".

.end whine

[Skuzzy]

Well, I buff quite a bit.  Looking forward to the new changes.  It will change the way we buff, for sure.  No more single pilot/bomber.  To survive, you are going to have to have a gunner with you.
No more extending 50 feet and tyring for another bomb pass either.  We will have to extend further from target after initial pass so we have time to reset Norden.

Lephturn, from what I can see, it appears the current system of buff guns converge at D1000.  This means a target within D600 to D800 will all likely hit a wall  of 50 cals that hit from wingtip to wingtip. Of course, the guns placements being so close together really does not mean there needed to be a convergence.

The lethality of the gunner in a buff is know cut down siginificantly, as there is no way all 7 guns can be brought to bear on a target.  This is where the "lethality" issue has always been.  So a lone buff is at a significant risk.

Attacking a B17 from a slightly high dead 6 position will now only have 1 gun hitting him.  Now with 4 buffs, it means a greater potential to have about 6 guns on the target, but that is still one less than before.  

As someone who files the buffs a lot, I can tell you there are some good buff hunters in here.  There are seams you can fly right through and rip a buff apart and never get a ping landed on you.

One thing is for sure, the guns on a buff are only as lethal as the guy that is pulling the trigger.  I can atest to that, as I hardly ever get the guy that shoots me down.

[Revvin]

whels> its quite simple post evidence of the gunnery on buffs being porked and they will listen as they have in the past. Yes sometimes there is a problem but how many times do you want HTC to look at this issue and then post that there is nothing wrong before you listen? how many more times does HT himself have to post about it?

Already seen another sim where those who shout the loudest get their way and I don't want it happening here. I guess HTC can never win, players squeak and whine about the effect single bombers andtheir laser nordens have on the arena so HTC give us AI bombers and increase the complexity of the bombsight and reduce the accuracy and players still whine about it. As a CO of a bomber squad I am really looking forward to seeing the new changes.

We've not even seen these new systems in action, don't you think its a bit silly to be complaining before we've even seen them?

[Kaz]

very true i have one kill in a buff in over well i don't know how many sorties i've flown but it's alot more than one that much i know. it's all about the guy/gal behind the guns.

btw that post about buff gun stability is an excellent observation it never occured to me but now that i think about it this is very true. bringing some vibration to the buff guns would be great no more laser sights even if it means messing up my shots even more than they are now

[CptTrips]

>Already seen another sim where those who shout the loudest
>get their way and I don't want it happening here.

True.  And that is certainly not how I would like to see HTC make their decisions.  The anti-chog mafia was already far too successful.

However, I have also seen people shout just as loud to keep a flaw or oversight that gives their particular ride a slight advantage.  Some will even argue that an obvious flaw should be left in for "game-play".  As the CO of a bomber squadron, perhaps your view might be slightly biased one way just as my view is biased the other.

I think there is a difference between "squeaking" and discussing concerns.  I think that as long as it is conducted in a respectful and rational manner that it is not only our right as customers, but perhaps even our duty to raise questions about possible flaws or oversights.

I've said before and I'll say agian.  I don't think that the buff guns are off by an order of magnitude, but I do think they're off.  After discussing the issue with HT and listening carefully to his explaination  I believe I was in error when I originally thought the effective range was a bit too far.  I now feel its prolly the lack of vibration to the sight when firing that allows the buff gunner to track a target at too high a magnification, and too great a range,  too smoothly.  The net effect gives the impression that the buff guns have an excession effective range.

I think sight vibration should be added to the buff guns for all the same reasons it was added to the fighters. It should also be added to m-16s, gv pintle guns etc, if for no other reason than consistancy.

I'm sure that this has been more of a matter of not getting around to it yet rather than an oversight.  I'm sure its been on their list of eventual "to do's".  I can think of no logical reason they should not vibrate if the fighter guns cans the sight to vibrate.  Especially when refering to hand controlled mounts.

I just feel that with the impending 4 buff armada, the priority of adding proper vibration to the buff gun sights should be increased.  Hopefully that is something that could be looked into while the new terrains are being finished up.

Regards,
Wab