Problems with Educational System of U.S.

[H. Godwineson]

Americans hear a lot of talk about problems in the nation's educational systems.  What are the main problems, if any, in our elementary, secondary, and college systems?  How can they be solved?

Please keep all responses as serious as possible please!


Regards, Shuckins

[Sandman]

Vouchers!

I don't get it. My son is in private school. It costs me approximately $3500 a year to do it.

The state of California spends approximately $7000 per student per year.

Somehow, I'm spending half as much on my son as the state does and yet the education is superior. Teachers are responsive, class size is small, etc.

Where does all the money go? Bureaucracy?

Vouchers!

Make the school compete for your business. It's the only way they find motivation to cut costs.

[Kieran]

Where do I begin?

Public schools operate in a diverse society, comprised of peoples and ideologies that span any spectrum you care to create. We also live in a pro-active, hair-trigger-response world. Everyone has a strong opinion of what public education should be, how things should be done, and everyone has the power to directly influence what happens.

Universities criticize public education for not changing the way testing and evaluation is done (portfolio, multiple intelligences, etc), yet those same colleges cling to the same standardized tests for entry- forcing public institutions to teach in a way that will boost standardized test scores.

Religious/Anti-religious groups are constantly at odds as to what should be taught. Creationism? Evolution? Homosexual studies? All are debated, and it usually comes down to whichever side has the most powerful lobby at any given moment...

Parents vary in their perception of discipline, especially as it applies to their children. Parents will sue with little provocation, and schools cannot afford to fight all the cases. This means discipline is declining, and the students know who is in charge.

Special education is difficult in some public schools, because the lobbies for this group can be powerful. This can result in untenable situations for the classroom teacher. Example: one year I was given 5 students with individual educational plans that required an hour of my time for each. I had an additional 25 regular education students. The student time in class was 5 hours, 40 minutes- what's wrong with the picture? I was legally bound to teach to the 5 students first, and largely ignore the 25 others.

Many parents believe teachers are the caretakers, health-care providers, and ethics teachers. Wish I had a nickel for every time a parent said something to the effect, "I don't teach him how to behave, that's your job!"

Teachers themselves feel bound by the myriad of rules and regulations that constrict every move or word. You've got to be on your game every day, because every day is a career-breaker.

For all that it can be a great job- mine is.

[Kieran]

Sandman-

The one thing that private school can and will do is toss your child out if he/she fails to meet the standards of the school. As you are paying big bucks for the education, you will be quite certain to make sure your child toes the line. Public schools simply cannot do this.

Abolish public education and force people to go to private schools and you will be able to compare apples to apples. 'Course, it could be the education provided by public schools is better than the none that would result from the many people that would not bother with school if it was not a requirement.

[Sikboy]

Man, I remember that Voucher initiative in Ca a few years back (Winter 2000 I think? the March Ballot?) Anyhow, there was some seriously bad reasoning going on during the campaign to defeat the initiative. My personal favorite was that "vouchers will rob the school system of badly needed funds" Which on the face of it is true, however, by reducing class sizes the schools would no longer need the same funding. Since vouchers would not have added up to the same amount being spent by the government on a per-student basis, the school system could wind up with MORE money per student than before vouchers.

I like the voucher idea in general, the only problem I have is with the particulars of regulation and fraud prevention. I believe that for any program to work it will need to have some sort of State-wide standard and accreditation process. As I recall, this was somewhat lacking the last time it came up in CA.

-Sikboy

[Tac]

I think the main problem with the PUBLIC system is that the students aren't really tought how to learn, but rather how to memorize and regurgitate.

I came to the US after graduating from high school in my country, my sibling had to go her 2 last years of high school in a us public school.

She was tested on memorized stuff, assignments were either mechanical regurgitation of the textbook or group assigments that ended in a very poor, bordering mediocre research and presentation. Funny thing was, the more "according to the book" the work was, the higher the grade.

The school also had a lot of summer programs that allowed F+ students to do some light catch-up work in a few weeks of summer and pass to the next grade, without really having learned what they were taught.

And so I found out WHY in college the great majority of students just rolled over and died when they were asked to do research on their own and come with their own results. Heck, some could barely even read. It's sad when a foreigner comes to a college and tutors ENGLISH to a native!

In my opinion, the SCHOOL system is a royal fuk up, but the College and universities in the US are top-notch. Its very weird.

[Kieran]

Tac-

I'd be very interested to hear what you think is the reason for the state of affairs you described. Seriously.

[midnight Target]

This is from memory (not real reliable after those darn 70's) but IIRC the biggest issue I had with the voucher issue here was the amount that was offered. I think it was $2500 per year per student. This would not be enough to cover the education expenses at a private school. Basically the poorer folks would not have the same access to an education through the law and it would have lead to a public school system populated almost exclusively by the "have nots".

I think we need to concentrate on our public school system. We can do much better. Pay teachers what they deserve. Allow communities a say in curriculum. Reduce the administrative overhead.

My mother was a 7th grade teacher for almost 40 years. She refused to work in a public school. Not because it wasn't safe, because she couldn't teach. She was known as the toughest teacher in the school, and her favorite word for below average work was "Asinine".
500 of her former students showed up at her memorial service, and many more wrote and called.
Students need structure. On this I think I lean a little to the right.

[Sikboy]

Originally posted by midnight Target
This is from memory blah blah blah Basically the poorer folks would not have the same access to an education through the law and it would have lead to a public school system populated almost exclusively by the "have nots".

Allthough it does dredge up memories of "seperate but equal" from the Civil rights movement, and the segregated south, this might not be the worst outcome imaginable. Imagine if the public school system could focus more attention on the kids who need it most. Would poor students be less served by a public school system where they are the majority of the students than in the current system? I just don't know.

I think we need to concentrate on our public school system. We can do much better. Pay teachers what they deserve.

Word

My mother was a 7th grade teacher for almost 40 years.

7th grade must be the worst age to teach. The kids are just starting to get the adult dosage of hormones. Much respect for your mother.


-Sikboy

[Kieran]

More on Tac's thought...

Public education is ridiculed for not teaching skills, that is, specific skills to prepare students for the workplace. Then education is ridiculed for not teaching students to think. If a tough choice has to be made between skill-based learning and project based (meaning real-world, thinking skills), I choose thinking.

I posted this thought on another thread that graced our board a couple of weeks ago. The technological wave has blown by education and much of the work force. What matters now in the world is thinking on your feet, realizing when you need to go learn something, finding where to learn it, and then educating yourself. The new competition is going to be between those that recognize and react faster to changes in the workplace, not between people with specific skills (for the most part).

The world has changed, and job descriptions are moving targets. How can any educational institution prepare anyone for that type of environment? Teach those kids to think on their feet.

FWIW, Tac, not all schools are like the one you described. There are good and bad public institutions, and as more private schools pop up you will see good and bad there, too. Vouchers are a good idea in concept, but never ignore there will be a need to monitor (as has been stated), and that means a bigger bureaucracy (or new one). There is also the issue of equity. Social scientists decry the growing gap between the haves and have-nots, and vouchers potentially widen the gap. Taken altogether, vouchers may be a case of getting less for more.

[Mathman]

One of the biggest problems is the low pay that teachers get.  I know, you are sitting there saying, "yeah, here is a teacher saying that he should get paid more."  Of course I want to get paid more for my job, who wouldn't.  The thing is, the low pay makes it an unnattractive career for many people.  Without a decent paycheck (40-50K starting would be good), you do not get the motivated people that you need for teaching.  This is not to say that you don't have motivated or quality teachers at all.  What I am getting at is that you lose the people who would make excellent teachers to jobs/careers that pay more.

Aside from the pay, the one thing that really drives me crazy as a teacher is the lack of parental involvement in their child's studies.  When we have parent-techer conferences, I never see the parents of the kids that I want to talk to (the ones that have the low grades or are not trying hard).  The only ones that I see are the kids with the A's and B's.  While it is nice to hear compliments, I would much rather talk to the parents of a C/D/F student than an A student.

I have no idea how to fix this or make it more likely that a parent actually wants to see what their kid is doing and who is teaching them.  I know that I would want to meet the person who is influencing my child for 6 hours a day.

Also, one of the other problems, depending on the school district or even the individual school, is the top heavy administration in some schools.  With more administrators, accountability becomes an issue.  Who is responsible for what?  This can be a major issue, particularly when there is an issue with what is going on inside the classroom.

[Skuzzy]

Tac pretty much hit the nail on the head, and Keiran, the reason it is done here in Texas is due to one of the ways schools get state funding.
In Texas, schools are paid based on the percentage of students that attend and pass each year.

My son was always complaining about how he was not learning a thing, but only being forced to memorize things so they could pass him on tests.  Even after they memorize the stuff, the grades are done "on the curve".  The way they crve here is not based on an average in the class.  They take the highest grade a student makes, they make that grade a perfect score and adjust the other grades upwards accordingly.
If a single student aces the test, then they grade all others based on an average and award bonus points to the student that aced the test.
It is quite easy for a student to finish high school here with a grade point average in excess of 4.0.  For the purposes of not letting the colleges see this, they fudge the paperwork to make sure the student has a 4.0.

It is so bad here, that (with my permission) he intentionally failed a test.  The teacher then allowed him to make poster boards to make up for the grade by giving him bonus points.

A few weeks later I attended a school board meeting to address this problem and was immediately blasted from the room by a group of parents who could see no reason for the system to change.  By the way, all these parents also had bumper stickers on thier cars proclaiming thier child was a honor student.

Now, move the next issue.  After the schools get the funding, guess where they spend a significant portion of it?  On football.  The local high school teaching staff here is comprised of 25% of the teachers being football coaches (17 in all).  The football program gets approximately 45% of all the school funding.  Do not get me wrong.  I think atheletics are important, but I think you can get carried away to the detriment of the students education as well.

I guess what it boils down to is the way money is apportioned to the schools and with little regard on how the school is supposed to spend it.

In Texas:
1) Schools get more funding based on percentage of passing students.
2) Schools get more funding based on attendence by students.

These two reasons alone cause a lot of the educational problems.  When my son graduated, I had a chance to meet the valedictorian from his school.  He could not calculate the diameter of a circle given the radius.  He also managed to get special honors in math.

My sons friends, who were considered quite intelligent, if you beleive what the grades are, all failed thier first semester in college and moved back home.

It is a pretty sad state of affairs, but it will not change.  I gave up on it after trying to get it changed.

Oh, and by the way, our local high school is rated as one of the best in Texas.  Scary.

[Tac]

Kieren, I'm just saying what I saw, as to why that's so, I really dont know. My sister went from both public and private school as we moved around, she even stayed for a few months in one of those preppy private catholic schools. No real difference between them we could see.

"If a tough choice has to be made between skill-based learning and project based (meaning real-world, thinking skills), I choose thinking. "

Totally agree.

And yes, teachers should be paid the same as engineers imo.

[Sikboy]

Originally posted by Mathman
What I am getting at is that you lose the people who would make excellent teachers to jobs/careers that pay more.

Both my Wife and I were poised to become public school teachers. But when we compared the wage to our love of teaching... well, We took a different path than Mathman. A question though for Math... How do you feel about teacher evaluation and testing?

-Sikboy

[Kieran]

Indiana uses a few elements to get funding. State-standardized scoring (which btw only tests math and english), the number of students eating free lunches, graduation rates and attendance are the major contributors. So, what happens?

The local newspapers will blast the local school if the neighboring town scores higher. The local school has to get pragmatic and decide what is the most efficient method for boosting the pertinent standards reported to the state. All manner of games get played here, and as mentioned in another thread, games with numbers can and do occur. Remember the furor over the Calfifornia students that were required to declare post- high school education training or education? Yup, it can be used as a stat to quantify a higher number of students that are college-bound. It is a sham, pure and simple, but a sham that is forced upon the school district for many reasons. If they don't play the game, they get less money, and that is bound to hurt the students.

What I guess I see is the problem is we get pulled more and more away from what we see is sound education in order to take care of the myriad demands of a bureaucracy that doesn't understand our problems or look for long-term solutions. Everything is a band-aid solution, and inevitably the ripple effects cause worse problems in the long haul.