Author Topic: Problems with Educational System of U.S.  (Read 815 times)

Offline Eagler

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At least they are teaching the kids something, and the kids have to retain it at least until they take the test. I'm all for it until something better comes along. Actually I'm all for it for two more years when my youngest grads from HS and he goes on to college. Then my wallet will do the testing :)
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Offline Kieran

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Problems with Educational System of U.S.
« Reply #31 on: May 21, 2002, 01:42:21 PM »
Nifty,

Exactly right, and exactly one of my arguments against the current model of standardized testing.

Offline Fatty

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Problems with Educational System of U.S.
« Reply #32 on: May 21, 2002, 02:03:33 PM »
I hate to be the great defender of standardized testing, but even given all criticisms as valid I'd take them over nothing.  I'd much rather see an attempt at improving the comprehensiveness over ditching them because of shortcomings.

As for collegiate level I don't have any problem with GRE type testing or even the entrance exams.  Schools do try to balance these with other achievements, but when it comes down to it there isn't really a better way to do a comparison of applicants from different schools whose grading methods may be completely different.

Offline eskimo2

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« Reply #33 on: May 21, 2002, 02:19:26 PM »
Since I moved to Ohio 5 months ago, I have had a unique opportunity to discuss wages with factory workers, construction workers, sales consultants and many others who's jobs require no college.  Their salaries are quite often in the 40-60+ K range.

So, what kind of salary does someone deserve in the private sector after completing 9+ years of college?  
What if this includes being certified for their occupation at graduate level, having experience and a proven track record?  
What if their job can not realistically be done in less than 50 hours a week?  (Often much more.)
What if the job expectation is to spend even more time volunteering to work for committees and attending late night functions and early meetings?
What if the job in question constantly requires juggling several tasks at once, out of thousands that must be completed in less than a year?
What if the job requires supervising and directing 20+ untrained, immature, unmotivated and independent workers at once?
What if the job in question legally requires additional training and education on a yearly basis, much of it at the employees expense?
What if the job implies that the employee needs to spend 5 to 10% of his/her yearly salary on unsupplied material?
What if the job requires documenting every &%#*@ task that the employee does.
What if the job requires being micro-managed by: politicians, administrators, "experts" and "specialist", members of the community, etc. all with conflicting ideas of how the job should be done, because "they know what's best" even though THEY'RE NOT ACTUALLY DOING THE %&*#@ JOB, AND HAVE NEVER ACTUALLY DONE THE &*%#$@ JOB!!!!

What kind of salary should this job bring?
Well, obviously we are talking about teaching here, what else would fit this job profile?  And we all know what teachers make!

One of the first things that I always hear when a discussion of teacher's salaries comes up is:
"But you get the summers off!"

This is true, but you would not believe how much time myself and other teachers spend getting ready for the next school year.  Preparing and organizing our classrooms, planning lessons and units, creating materials, fixing stuff that the school district should have, taking classes, etc.  Heck, I even painted my classroom one summer (at my own expense, of course).

When it comes to education, the question becomes: "What's the least that we can pay certified people to do this job?"
And if the taxpayers are particularly cheap, the question becomes: "How much do we have to lower our standard requirements and expectations to get enough people to work at this pathetic pay, and under these pathetic conditions?"

So, what was my salary last year?

Less than 28 K.

This was fine when my wife worked.  But now we have kids, and I'll be damned to put them in day care.  And I'll be damned to not see my kids grow up because I'm always at work.  I don't mind driving an $800 car for the past 6 years, wearing clothes from the Salvation Army, playing AH on an old P-II 350, but I'm not going to raise my kids in an apartment complex in a bad part of town.

I can't afford to be a teacher...  I'm done.

eskimo

Offline eskimo2

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« Reply #34 on: May 21, 2002, 02:38:13 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Fatty
I hate to be the great defender of standardized testing, but even given all criticisms as valid I'd take them over nothing.  I'd much rather see an attempt at improving the comprehensiveness over ditching them because of shortcomings.

As for collegiate level I don't have any problem with GRE type testing or even the entrance exams.  Schools do try to balance these with other achievements, but when it comes down to it there isn't really a better way to do a comparison of applicants from different schools whose grading methods may be completely different.


Fatty,

Standardized testing is about as worthwhile as the AH score system.  It gives indications of success.  
Both can be useful and misleading.

The top 10 fighter list is a good indicator that those pilots are... good.  But I wouldn't bet that pilot #100 or #3000 wasn't every bit as good as those in the top 10.  And I wouldn't bet surprised if pilot #10 or #100 wasn't really just average.

Likewise, standardized tests just barely indicate... things, at best.   Yet a lot of weight is put upon them.  There are way too many factors that influence or determine the success of a: student, teacher, school or district.  The AH score system is very simple, clear, cut-n-dry by comparison.

eskimo

Offline H. Godwineson

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« Reply #35 on: May 21, 2002, 03:10:22 PM »
Eskimo,

I know what you mean.  With 25 years experience, a masters degree, plus more than 30 hours of additional credits, most of them at the graduate level, my take home pay is $28,000 a year.

I love my job but it isn't worth the financial headaches that come with it.  My credit rating stays screwed up because of emergencies that eat up the cash for my monthly payments.  We are living in a double-wide mobile home because that is all that we can afford.  

Arkansas is facing a severe teacher shortage within the next few years because there aren't enough college grads moving into the field of education.  One of the more laughable suggestions to come down from a state legislative committee studying the teacher shortage is that the standards for teacher certification and accreditation be made tougher in order to attract more graduates into the field of education!

DAMN!  If I were a college graduate that would certainly cause ME to think seriously about going into education!


Regards, Shuckins

Offline Kieran

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« Reply #36 on: May 21, 2002, 03:23:40 PM »
I am all for teacher standards being set high, but if you are going to raise standards, you'd better be ready to pay more. Anyone thinking making a job tougher for the same pay will create incentive to move into the field is nuts.

I will never cease to be amazed at the dollars thrown at sports figures compared to what is thrown at essential services jobs such as fire, police, health care, and education. Naturally that is private money, but our society sure seems to accept those figures are worth more than any other. I guess the next time your house catches fire you can call an NBA player. :rolleyes:

Offline midnight Target

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« Reply #37 on: May 21, 2002, 03:25:54 PM »
How do you guys currently teaching feel about allowing teachers into the profession with "life experience" credits or honorary degrees.
I bet there are lots of retired people who would make excellent instructors. Maybe in specialized classes, or even at the Junior College level.
My father was a self taught engineer, and taught drafting in a local JC. He never attended college. (Ended up as the CEO of a 300 million dollar a year company too)

I am a member of our community council on higher education and business. This means I get to meet with the local college presidents once a quarter and squeak them out for sending so many uneducated workers our way.
OK. Maybe that is a little oversimplified, but it would be nice if our community schools started educating people for our community.
My company sponsors a local teacher to come work with us for a week each year. This externship program helps the district formulate some curriculum to assist in the future employment of our local students.
Many of us in business should take a more active role in the schools in our communities. It is in our best interests too.

Offline eskimo2

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« Reply #38 on: May 21, 2002, 04:05:43 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Mathman

I have no idea how to fix this or make it more likely that a parent actually wants to see what their kid is doing and who is teaching them.  I know that I would want to meet the person who is influencing my child for 6 hours a day.



Mathman,

Every high-risk school teacher that I have talked to has expressed your concern.  No one seems to have a workable answer.  My solution was to stop banging my head against the wall. Trying to get certain parents to do what they have already proven that they can't (parent) is a waste of time and energy.  Figure out how best to get the kids to learn what they need to learn while they are in school.  That's what everyone expects anyway.

eskimo

Offline Kieran

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« Reply #39 on: May 21, 2002, 04:21:27 PM »
MT-

I have no problem with that, especially given that I come from a situation sort of similar to that. I was educated as a K-6 teacher, and have 14 years experience. Our high school lost a tech teacher, and I was moved based on my work and experience outside the classroom to cover. They have decided to retain me in this position.

Experience matters. Real-world situations matter. If you consider the concept of project-based learning, then you realize the importance of utilizing industry persons. It won't work in every case, but it does have its place. The problem you may face is finding a way to evaluate the efficacy of such persons before you turn them loose on a class. Knowing how to do something doesn't equate to being able to teach something. Teaching is a skill in and of itself.

Offline Kieran

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« Reply #40 on: May 21, 2002, 04:23:18 PM »
Eskimo-

Correct. You have a situation before you every day. Assume you are the only person that can do anything about it. Assume you are going to have the greatest impact on the student (at least for the positive). Expect no help from anyone or any organization. If you can do this and function, you'll be ok.

Offline midnight Target

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« Reply #41 on: May 21, 2002, 04:33:09 PM »
Quote
Teaching is a skill in and of itself.


Excellent point. When we all learn this we will be headed the right direction.
I run the Quality Department where I work. Much of what we do involves pointing out things people do wrong. I look for "teacher types" when I hire inspectors. It is much more important to have the ability to instruct than it is to have the technical knowledge of the product. Technical knowledge is much easier to teach.

Offline eskimo2

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« Reply #42 on: May 21, 2002, 06:00:04 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Kieran
MT-

I have no problem with that, especially given that I come from a situation sort of similar to that. I was educated as a K-6 teacher, and have 14 years experience. Our high school lost a tech teacher, and I was moved based on my work and experience outside the classroom to cover. They have decided to retain me in this position.

Experience matters. Real-world situations matter. If you consider the concept of project-based learning, then you realize the importance of utilizing industry persons. It won't work in every case, but it does have its place. The problem you may face is finding a way to evaluate the efficacy of such persons before you turn them loose on a class. Knowing how to do something doesn't equate to being able to teach something. Teaching is a skill in and of itself.



My wife went to a private Catholic high school.  Her physics teacher was a former nuclear sub captain and was a member of the Nuclear Regulatory Commission.  To the best of her knowledge, he was not formally trained in education.  He was also a natural teacher and she still speaks praise of him to this day.  Private schools can get away with hiring such people, which very often is a good thing.  As Kieran pointed out, however, how do you know what your getting into when you hire someone based on their worldly experience?  Being formally trained in education means that you ease your way in.  But then again, a lot of teachers make it through school and some actually get hired, without being "good".

I began my teaching career as a substitute teacher.  I had no formal training in education.  The only requirements to be a sub were a four year degree in anything, and an FBI background check.  I went to work my first day, teaching 7th grade English in a high risk school. I was 100% unprepared.  So why was I hired?  Because not enough certified teachers were willing to work for $65 a day, without benefits.  This is a common trend because sub pay is so low.  I have even heard of places that hire untrained full-time teachers.  (After a year of subbing I went to grad school to study education in hopes of teaching full time.)

Teaching is the one occupation where instead of raising the salaries to attract qualified employees, standards are sometimes lowered until classrooms are full.  I guess I was lucky when I was hired full time.  I was one of 30 to be hired that year, out of 3,000 applicants (I was hired in the highest paying district in the Colorado Springs area).  They could probably offer no pay at all to teachers, and many people would still do it.  Hey that's not a bad idea!  Then the taxpayers would be able to afford the 6-change CD player for their car and be able to buy tickets for the next big sporting event.  After all, those professional sports figures have got to have enough $ for their hoes, cocaine, Ferraris, concealed weapons and hotel-room repairs.  As long as they don't have their hard earned money being wasted on educating the neighborhood kids, they'll be happy.  Maybe they can buy better alarm systems and homeowner's insurance with the money that they save on education taxes, after all, they're going to need the alarms and insurance when these kids start breaking into their homes to steal stuff...  

eskimo