Author Topic: F-15C Is Junk!!! USAF Doomed By Ivan's Superior Sukhoi!  (Read 966 times)

Offline moose

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F-15C Is Junk!!! USAF Doomed By Ivan's Superior Sukhoi!
« Reply #15 on: May 25, 2002, 08:31:16 PM »
Boroda you're assuming that the SAM crews wouldn't have either walked off the job or were sober that night. Or maybe that the SAMs themselves were in good condition :)
<----ASSASSINS---->

Offline Gadfly

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F-15C Is Junk!!! USAF Doomed By Ivan's Superior Sukhoi!
« Reply #16 on: May 25, 2002, 09:10:06 PM »
Sure I can back it up.  Pick any Soviet supplied nation that we have destroyed recently as an example.

Offline Russian

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« Reply #17 on: May 25, 2002, 09:21:54 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Animal
Why didnt they simply replaced the F-15's with Russian fighters until the F-22 was done? ;)

Navy wanted to do that with Su33, but pride got in the way.

Offline Russian

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F-15C Is Junk!!! USAF Doomed By Ivan's Superior Sukhoi!
« Reply #18 on: May 25, 2002, 09:24:21 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Gadfly
Sure I can back it up.  Pick any Soviet supplied nation that we have destroyed recently as an example.


You said it your self, its supplied (de-rated, old, crapy etc)

S 300 can shoot forther then Harm missile, that is not a good example either.

Offline fdiron

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F-15C Is Junk!!! USAF Doomed By Ivan's Superior Sukhoi!
« Reply #19 on: May 25, 2002, 10:18:34 PM »
F22 is a waste of money.  Its already outclassed by some of the more recent Russian fighters.  Also, does the U.S. really need a new air supierority fighter right now?  This isn't World War II.  The last few countries the U.S. has attacked have either had no airforce at all, or had a mangey fleet of rag-tag Russian relics.  In my opinion, the F22 symbolizes what is wrong with the United States.  The Air Force is getting a new front line fighter, which is underfunded, overpriced, and overdue, while the Army has to make do with Vietnam era radios and rifles, aging transport helicopters, and a fleet of tanks which urgently need overhaul.   Its not Migs that have been causing all these U.S. Choppers to crash over the past year, its aging equipment.

Offline LtHans

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« Reply #20 on: May 25, 2002, 10:27:29 PM »
Hey.... I like MiGs.  MiGs are cool planes man.

Also, comparing 3rd world countries to Mother Russia is going to get you killed when you fight.  Learn from the Germans.  Russians can fight, although casualties were horrendous.

Offline Thrawn

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F-15C Is Junk!!! USAF Doomed By Ivan's Superior Sukhoi!
« Reply #21 on: May 25, 2002, 10:38:25 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Gadfly
Sure I can back it up.  Pick any Soviet supplied nation that we have destroyed recently as an example.


Or you can back your original statement with supporting arguements.  You made the point.  Back it up with actual evidence.  

Or was it just intended to slam Russia for the sake of who knows what?
« Last Edit: May 25, 2002, 10:44:02 PM by Thrawn »

Offline Dnil

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« Reply #22 on: May 25, 2002, 11:59:17 PM »
Rusting fleets, unable to pay bills.  Hmm pilots are lucky to get 30 hours a year.  Worried about Russia, uhh yea right.  Read some stuff on how wonderful they have been doing in Chechnya.  ooohh Russia the big boogey man, please.

Offline Gadfly

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F-15C Is Junk!!! USAF Doomed By Ivan's Superior Sukhoi!
« Reply #23 on: May 26, 2002, 12:39:07 AM »
Thrawn, my dear.  I need back it up no further than the post that I answered originally.  It would appear, prima facie, that I am correct, though, since the USA is still here, and the USSR is but a wish.

Here, by Boroda, the drunken thief, so you don't have to search:

"Funked, Soviet aircraft doctrine was mostly defencive. Imagine a barrier of SAMs from 250+km range S-200s, short-range low-alt S-125s, good ol' S-75s, supplied with targeting info by enormous grid of Radio-Technical Troops, with MiG-31s over their heads, each "zveno" covering ~1500km of frontline, with frontline firghters like MiG-29 or Su-27 used only as corks in the holes...

Any fighter even as good as F-22 will endure no more then 5 minutes after crossing the targeting range. So - it's quite clever to save your taxpayers money. You can bomb Afghan peasants "to stone age" with something like B-29s or B-52s. You already have an experience."

Offline Russian

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F-15C Is Junk!!! USAF Doomed By Ivan's Superior Sukhoi!
« Reply #24 on: May 26, 2002, 12:42:53 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Dnil
Rusting fleets, unable to pay bills.  Hmm pilots are lucky to get 30 hours a year.  Worried about Russia, uhh yea right.  Read some stuff on how wonderful they have been doing in Chechnya.  ooohh Russia the big boogey man, please.


Do you know of a saying, " do not underestimate enemies”

Offline Gadfly

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F-15C Is Junk!!! USAF Doomed By Ivan's Superior Sukhoi!
« Reply #25 on: May 26, 2002, 12:51:54 AM »
But, since it is late, let me guess how it would go.  You real military types can correct me if I get too far off.  

Let's assume that Russia pisses us off enough that we are going to do some strong stuff, but nothing nuclear.

First in, of course, are the cruise missiles, let's assume they will be targeted at all those drunken, unpaid conscripts running the Radar.

Behind them come the stealth wild weasels, looking for active anything.  Next come the heavy stealth to work on CnC, and hot on their ass, a big old wave of everything with wings and rockets.

The next morning, with AS secure, the high alt, smart bomb carrying B52's begin deliveries, targeted by the silent ones.

Would not be easy, cheap or a sure thing, but you have to be crazier than I am to not think that that is what would happen.


And I am kidding about the drunken conscripts-I am sure their military is just as professional as ours.

Offline Durr

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F-15C Is Junk!!! USAF Doomed By Ivan's Superior Sukhoi!
« Reply #26 on: May 26, 2002, 01:30:02 AM »
I am not even going to get involved in this pissing match about Russia, which I consider to be one of our allies and friends.  I would however, like to dispute some claims about the F-22.

 It is NOT, as one person asserted, outclassed by recent Russian fighters.  It is far beyond any fighter that has ever been produced to date.  The Eurofighter comes close in many respects but lacks the stealthiness.  The Su-35 and other Flanker variants have somewhat superior manouverability in certain flight regimes, but lack the avionics, stealth, and speed over distance possessed by the Raptor.

  And we DO need the F-22.  Just because we have not had a serious challenge in the air in recent times does not mean that we never will.  China is perilously close to developing a fighter fleet that can challenge our current fighters.  They are building Flankers under license, and have 2 new homegrown fighters that they are working on (including one that is based on the F-16).  If they build these in the quantities that they usually acquire military hardware in, they will have one of the strongest air forces in the world.

 We have to look way down the road in a situation like this.  Right now the F-15 is king of the world as far as fighters go, but 20 years from now, they will be very very old.  The airframes will be worn out, and they will have trouble tangling with many newer generation fighters.  They will be hard put to survive against the latest SAM missiles as well, since they are extremely unstealthy. The Eagle fleet is already 20 years old (except for the Strike Eagles of course) and fighters wear out quicker than do bombers and transports due to the high wear and tear caused by the mission.  We cant just decide in 10 years that, hey we need a new fighter right now!  It takes many years for an advanced program like that to develop.  The days of a frontline fighter being designed in less than a year ended in the '50s.  CAD type technologies have sped up design processes, but a fighter like the F-22 is so complex, and the testing that it must undergo is so extensive, that even in an all-out push to develop a fighter as fast as possible, I cannot imagine one being completed in less than 3 or 4 years.  And that would be an all out, cost no object,  emergency drive to develop a fighter.  Far better to spread the cost out over a longer time, and have enough time to work the bugs out, and come up with a great fighter that will serve for many years to come.  The F-22 is slated to enter service around 2006, give or take a year or two, barring further interference from Congress.  

Having the best air superiority fighter is the key to winning because once you control the sky, you can do pretty much anything you want.  If you cant keep the enemy air force down, however, your bombers and strikers arent going to do you much good, and your ground troops are going to suffer.  Since somewhere around mid WW2, no country has won a conventional war where it lacked air superiority.  There have been cases where asymetric capabilities such as guerrilla warfare have been used to offset a countries dominance in the air, but these have been far fewer than most people realize.

 It is our pride in the USAF that no US ground soldier has died to an enemy aircraft since early in the Korean war.  The F-22 will ensure that this record continues indefinitely.
« Last Edit: May 26, 2002, 01:33:36 AM by Durr »

Offline funkedup

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F-15C Is Junk!!! USAF Doomed By Ivan's Superior Sukhoi!
« Reply #27 on: May 26, 2002, 06:30:54 PM »
Boroda - I don't think we want F-22 to penetrate Soviet air defense.  It's needed to control the modern fighters your cash starved aerospace industry is carelessly selling to rogue states all around the world.

I agree with Animal, US should buy some Su-30's.  This probably won't be acceptable for national pride and industrial reasons, but maybe it will be OK once Russia enters NATO, ~10 years.  :)

Offline SageFIN

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F-15C Is Junk!!! USAF Doomed By Ivan's Superior Sukhoi!
« Reply #28 on: May 27, 2002, 12:27:42 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by funkedup
I agree with Animal, US should buy some Su-30's.  This probably won't be acceptable for national pride and industrial reasons, but maybe it will be OK once Russia enters NATO, ~10 years.  :)


Whee, sensible opinions. If there was a need for US to update carrier fleets, the newer Sukhois would be nice option. They're comparatively cheap, as good as they come and the main point: they're already available.

Offline Hortlund

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F-15C Is Junk!!! USAF Doomed By Ivan's Superior Sukhoi!
« Reply #29 on: May 27, 2002, 06:42:18 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Durr
It is far beyond any fighter that has ever been produced to date. The Eurofighter comes close in many respects but lacks the stealthiness.  
3 questions:
1) Is the Eurofighter in production?
2) I'd seriously like to hear your evaluation of the Swedish JAS-39. In what way is the JAS (apart from Stealth) inferior to the F-22?
3) I thought that today, avionics and quality of weapons are more than 95% of winning a "dogfight", i e, manuverability and speed matters less, do you disagree?
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Right now the F-15 is king of the world as far as fighters go,
[/b]
What makes the F-15 better than the JAS-39 or the improved F/A-18? All these 3 fighters are equipped with the same weapons, and I think they are all evenly matched when it comes to avionics/computers and countermeasures.
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Since somewhere around mid WW2, no country has won a conventional war where it lacked air superiority.  

Falklands 82?