Author Topic: F-15C Is Junk!!! USAF Doomed By Ivan's Superior Sukhoi!  (Read 877 times)

Offline Dinger

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F-15C Is Junk!!! USAF Doomed By Ivan's Superior Sukhoi!
« Reply #30 on: May 27, 2002, 08:37:47 PM »
Umm.. Falklands 82.  Ability of British aircraft to strike targets around falklands at will?  Ability of Argentine aircraft to strike targets? Ratio of number of effective Air-to-Surface weapons systems in Argentine arsenal to number of targets? The exocets were pretty, but they fired 'em all.  Number of Argentine aircraft shot down? Number of UK aircraft shot down?  number of CAS missions flown by each side?
It wasn't pretty, but in my book they did have air superiority; it may not have been total, but it was sufficient.

Offline Otto

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F-15C Is Junk!!! USAF Doomed By Ivan's Superior Sukhoi!
« Reply #31 on: May 27, 2002, 09:40:12 PM »
Is the Su-30Mk still using a Pilot...?

Offline Durr

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F-15C Is Junk!!! USAF Doomed By Ivan's Superior Sukhoi!
« Reply #32 on: May 28, 2002, 12:49:50 AM »
Response to Hortlunds post:

-The Eurofighter is now in production and should enter service starting late this year or early next year with some countries.  

-The Jas-39 Gripen is an outstanding fighter.  In a post at the military.com message boards I once rated the Gripen highly in a thread about the worlds best fighters.  I consider the Gripen to be certainly in the inner circle or top notch combat aircraft for a number of reasons.  The F-22 however, is simply in a quite another category.  It has a number of advantages over the Jas-39.  These include:  Greater top speed overall + the ability to fly supersonic without using AB.  Stealth.  Greater range.  Superior ECM suite.  Integrated firecontrol and communications systems similar to the current JTIDs system used by the F-15, that allow information sharing among platforms.  Better radar.  I cannot say with certainty which aircraft is more manouverable since there are no unclassified numbers available that would allow a definitive comparison of the 2 fighters yet.  I suspect that in manouverability the 2 are very close.  The F-22 is supposed to be similar in manouverability to the F-16 which means that the Gripen should be very nearly as manouverable if not equal.  

Other than that the F-22 is the superior weapon, as it should be since it is newer and has the benefit of the intervening years of rapid technology growth, not to mention the massive budget that the Raptor has enjoyed.  

-I tend to agree with your 3rd point up to a certain point, avionics and missiles have more to do with winning the fight nowadays then do speed and manoverability.  The latter 2 factors definitely still have their place though.  Speed is still important because it allows you to control the engagement.  The ability to run down enemy fighters (or to run away itself if need be, for whatever reason)  is extremely important.  Agility and manouverability can and do still play a role if the fight gets in close for whatever reason.  Read the article that started off this thread to see how superior radar can occasionally be overcome using innovative tactics.  


As to how the F-15 is superior to the Gripen or Super Hornet, they are actually pretty evenly matched.  That was my USAF prejudice showing itself a little.  Both the Super Hornet and the Gripen have smaller radar signatures.  They are also both more manouverable than the Eagle, although not by a huge margin.
The F-15 is a little faster and still has better radar overall.  They all 3 use the same weapons.  The F-15 has the better range.  All in all they are pretty closely matched though.  That is in terms of air to air work.   The F-15E is easily the better strike fighter of the 3 though due to its better range, terrain following radar, and bigger payload.  I am going to try to find that post I did on military.com about the top 10 fighters and repost it here as a new topic.  

And finally, regarding the Falklands war, I would say that the British DID have air superiority and it was an important factor.  The Harriers were able to shoot down quite a few Argentine aircraft (around 20 I believe if I remember correctly) while the Argentines were only able to shoot down  1 Marine helicoptor in air to air fighting.  Some other British aircraft were shot down by ground fire and/or missiles.  The Argentines were able to hit and sink a number of Royal Navy ships using Exocets launched from shore and from Etendard fighters.  They also used A-4s to bomb using iron bombs and I think they even sunk a ship using those.  However, despite the couragous resistance of the Argentine Air Force and Naval Air arms, the British were able to do pretty much as they pleased in the air.  It was definitely air superiority for the British, although not the total air dominance that the US and allies enjoyed in Desert Storm/ Kosovo/ Afghanistan.

Offline Nath[BDP]

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F-15C Is Junk!!! USAF Doomed By Ivan's Superior Sukhoi!
« Reply #33 on: May 28, 2002, 11:40:22 AM »
Our pilots are better.
++Blue Knights++
vocalist of the year


Offline Sikboy

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F-15C Is Junk!!! USAF Doomed By Ivan's Superior Sukhoi!
« Reply #34 on: May 28, 2002, 11:54:03 AM »
It's pretty funny that we have debates about the "best fighter of WWII" And we have declassified performance information, combat records, multiple computer simulations and no end of "expert" opinions. And even then we can't even deceide.

And yet now, with far less information some have taken on the question of the "Best modern Fighter in the world." Seems like a fool's errand to me.

-Sikboy
You: Blah Blah Blah
Me: Meh, whatever.

Offline Sandman

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F-15C Is Junk!!! USAF Doomed By Ivan's Superior Sukhoi!
« Reply #35 on: May 28, 2002, 12:00:45 PM »
You're being rational SB.

Stop that.

Just argue for the sake of arguing. :D


EDIT: Oh... and Superman would kick Spiderman's ass.
sand

Offline midnight Target

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F-15C Is Junk!!! USAF Doomed By Ivan's Superior Sukhoi!
« Reply #36 on: May 28, 2002, 12:05:31 PM »
Yea but Spiderman's girlfriend looks way better in a wet t-shirt! :eek:

Offline Sandman

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F-15C Is Junk!!! USAF Doomed By Ivan's Superior Sukhoi!
« Reply #37 on: May 28, 2002, 12:30:22 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by midnight Target
Yea but Spiderman's girlfriend looks way better in a wet t-shirt! :eek:


Let's see... Spiderman's girlfriend:



Superman's girlfriend:



Not even close... Superman's got it all. :D
sand

Offline midnight Target

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F-15C Is Junk!!! USAF Doomed By Ivan's Superior Sukhoi!
« Reply #38 on: May 28, 2002, 12:55:14 PM »
Ouch!

Forgot about the TV show...... I withdraw my previous statement.

Offline Sandman

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F-15C Is Junk!!! USAF Doomed By Ivan's Superior Sukhoi!
« Reply #39 on: May 28, 2002, 01:07:02 PM »
What a hijack. :D
sand

Offline Otto

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F-15C Is Junk!!! USAF Doomed By Ivan's Superior Sukhoi!
« Reply #40 on: May 28, 2002, 01:10:43 PM »
   What I was trying to say is that Pilots will soon  go the way of the Bi-plane.  Before the F-22 or JSF get into full produciton we (the U.S.) will be fielding a large number of very small, very deadly and very inexpensive UAV's that are going to take aerial combat to where it's never been before.

    The song "Turn the Beat Around" comes to mind.....
« Last Edit: May 28, 2002, 01:14:23 PM by Otto »

Offline vorticon

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F-15C Is Junk!!! USAF Doomed By Ivan's Superior Sukhoi!
« Reply #41 on: May 28, 2002, 01:14:27 PM »
F15 isnt that a bit old... they do have the F35 joint strike fighter getting ready to start rolling

Offline Replicant

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F-15C Is Junk!!! USAF Doomed By Ivan's Superior Sukhoi!
« Reply #42 on: May 28, 2002, 03:13:24 PM »
Falklands '82

Quote from RAF website:-

The essential task of the Sea Harriers would be to defend the TF, and their small numbers in relation to the size of the Argentine air forces suggested that they would have their work cut out.

The Argentines had Mirage fighters, Dagger attack aircraft, Canberra bombers, Puccara attack aircraft, Super Entand anti-ship aircraft, A4 Skyhawk Fighter/Attack aircraft operating either from their carrier or from mainland Argentina.  
Total Combat Aircraft = 134

Britain had 3 Fleet Air Arm squadrons of Sea Harrier FRS.1 (800, 801, 809 Sqns) plus one RAF squadron (1(F) Sqn) based on HMS Hermes & HMS Invincible.  
Total Combat Aircraft = 28

The Harrier force had to operate as Fleet Defence & Reconnaisance (FRS.1s), and also as Fighter/Attack (FRS.1 & GR.3).  In some instances a 2 aircraft patrol would encounter up to 6 enemy aircraft.

In addition the RAF had Vulcan bombers attack Port Stanley airfield from the Ascension Islands.  Also both carriers and other Navy vessels had either Sea King, Wessex, Lynx & Wasp helicopters (Lynx & Wasps were used on smaller ships). One Chinook was used on FIs by RAF/Army forces.

It was Seapower that provided the balance in air power - i.e. picket lines around the Falkland Islands which restricted the operation of Argentine air forces.

References: US Air Command & Staff College Air University (http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/ops/war/docs/99-237.pdf

Royal Air Force website http://www.raf.mod.uk
« Last Edit: May 28, 2002, 03:16:19 PM by Replicant »
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