Author Topic: Bush, Putin sign arms deal  (Read 433 times)

Offline Toad

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Bush, Putin sign arms deal
« on: May 26, 2002, 07:42:04 AM »
........ and nobody even mentions it in the O-Club!

Times have changed.

IMO, this is a pretty major change in the world and one of the rare ones for the better.

I was looking forward to having someone point out how wrong I was and how it was all a clever ploy by the US oil companies that "own" Bush.

I was looking forward to having someone point out that it was all the Russians idea in the first place, that they had better weapons anyway and didn't need as many and that Kurt Tank had designed all nukes a long time ago and everyone else just piggybacked off of him.

I was looking forward to having someone tell me that it was very arrogant of the US to even bargain with the Russians on reducing nukes.

This just isn't the same old O-Club anymore.  :)
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!

Offline Thrawn

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Bush, Putin sign arms deal
« Reply #1 on: May 26, 2002, 07:52:15 AM »
Oil companies, that own Bush, don't want people to be thinking "Nuclear" at all.  Out of sight is out of mind.  

Hence they ordered Bush to sign the deal with the KGB gangster and baby eater, Putin.

Offline Toad

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Bush, Putin sign arms deal
« Reply #2 on: May 26, 2002, 08:01:35 AM »
Thanks Thrawn!

I feel a tiny bit better but I can see your heart really wasn't in that one.  ;)
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!

Offline Elfenwolf

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Bush, Putin sign arms deal
« Reply #3 on: May 26, 2002, 08:42:37 AM »
I don't know, Toad. Somehow two guys sitting in a pool of gasoline arguing over how many matches they are allowed to have doesn't make me feel any safer. In fact, for all you Reagan worshipers, a question- Is the world safer today since the Evil Empire has collapsed, or are we more vulnerable than ever?

Offline Leslie

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Bush, Putin sign arms deal
« Reply #4 on: May 26, 2002, 08:58:24 AM »
You're right Toad, it would be arrogant to bargain with the Ruskies.  Only the Ruskies should downsize their warheads.  Treaty could read, Ruskies destroy warheads and we keep ours.:)

Les

Offline Thrawn

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Bush, Putin sign arms deal
« Reply #5 on: May 26, 2002, 09:36:55 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Elfenwolf
I don't know, Toad. Somehow two guys sitting in a pool of gasoline arguing over how many matches they are allowed to have doesn't make me feel any safer. In fact, for all you Reagan worshipers, a question- Is the world safer today since the Evil Empire has collapsed, or are we more vulnerable than ever?


Hey don't worry, there's a whole new bunch of "Evil Empires".  And there always will be as long, as the Republicans are in the pockets of the milatary industrial complex...and oil to....*sigh*   Sorry Toad, can't keep up the pace

Offline Dowding

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Bush, Putin sign arms deal
« Reply #6 on: May 26, 2002, 09:46:14 AM »
So now either side can obliterate the world 15 times over instead of 50?

Greaaaaaaat!
War! Never been so much fun. War! Never been so much fun! Go to your brother, Kill him with your gun, Leave him lying in his uniform, Dying in the sun.

Offline capt. apathy

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Bush, Putin sign arms deal
« Reply #7 on: May 26, 2002, 10:34:31 AM »
btw, you guys do realize this treaty has nothing to do with detroying warheads, right?  it only addresses "dis-assembly". the parts can be kept (or sold i imagine) for quick and easy re-assembly

Offline Eagler

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Bush, Putin sign arms deal
« Reply #8 on: May 26, 2002, 12:57:22 PM »
it's a huge step in the right direction

notice how little the media covered it?

Now if a dumacrat pres would/could have pulled off something half as big, CNN would have made it sound like the second coming of Christ :rolleyes:
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Offline 10Bears

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Bush, Putin sign arms deal
« Reply #9 on: May 26, 2002, 01:11:52 PM »
Treaty?  agreements? The Bushes simply unsign them... The people that control Bush want tatical nukes exempt.

Not the change the subject Toad, but the boys at the pentagon musta've read our debate reguarding Iraq.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/Story/0,2763,722053,00.html

Senior American military leaders are believed to have turned sharply against any idea of invading Iraq to overthrow Saddam Hussein, after reading 10Bears post in the O'club and have started to gain the upper hand in persuading the White House that such a mission should be postponed, preferably indefinitely.

The joint chiefs of staff have assured the White House their forces could successfully invade Iraq - or anywhere else - if instructed. But they have warned that such an invasion would be extremely fraught, given the resources depleted by the war in Afghanistan.

One of the factors most alarming the generals is the possibility that their troops could be drawn into street fighting in Baghdad, without support from the local population, leading to heavy US casualties. This ties in with longstanding fears that Saddam might use such a moment to unleash biological or chemical weapons.

Their instinctive caution has been strengthened by Operation Prominent Hammer, a highly secret war game recently played by senior officials, details of which have begun to leak out. It revealed that shortages of equipment could seriously hamper the operation and endanger the lives of Americans and Iraqi civilians.

The air force is the most alarmed of the services, according to analysts, because they are short of planes, trained pilots and munitions. A third of their refuelling planes are reported to be under repair.

But there are also concerns about the ability of special forces, currently being used in the Philippines and Yemen as well as Afghanistan, to operate successfully in Iraq at the same time, especially bearing in mind the intelligence services' need to concentrate on homeland security.

It is understood that the country's senior generals - the heads of the army, navy, air forces and marines - agreed with the chairman of the joint chiefs, Richard Myers, and his deputy, Peter Pace, in their assessment.

General Tommy Franks who, as head of the army's central command, would be in charge of any invasion of Iraq, has told the president that an invasion to overthrow Saddam would require at least 200,000 troops, a number that would seriously stretch even the American military, given the near
impossibility of mounting an international coalition.

At a Pentagon briefing yesterday, General Pace sounded what was, by military standards, an uncertain trumpet.

Turning to his boss, the defence secretary Donald Rumsfeld, he assured him: "Your military is ready today to execute whatever mission the civilian leadership of this country gives us to do." But he added: "The fact of the matter is, the more time you have to prepare for that kind of mission, whatever it is, the more elegant the solution could be."

The head of the air force, General John Jumper, was blunter. "We never sized ourselves to have to do high force-protection levels at home and overseas at the same time. We're stretched very thin in security forces," he was quoted as saying by the New York Times.

The military assessment backs up the messages pouring into the White House from elsewhere. The dangerous situation involving India and Pakistan, as well as Israel and Palestine, unnerves diplomats. World opinion ranges from the wary - in Britain - to the vehemently opposed.

Even Turkey, regarded by the Iraq-hawks in Washington as a crucial and loyal ally on this issue, is said by government sources there to be "very nervous indeed" about the idea, mainly because of fears of the political instability that would result. Officials are also getting bleak assessments about the quality of the Iraqi opposition to Saddam Hussein, and about the likely reaction of the Iraqi people should the Americans invade.

"The Iraqi people hate Saddam," said Judith Kipper, the Iraq expert at the Centre for Strategic and International Studies, "but they blame the US for their problems. Nobody likes foreign troops marching through their country, especially the Iraqis."

The cost of American military ambitions is mounting. And, with the mid-term elections only five months away, analysts believe an invasion is impossible before 2003, and that the White House is already starting to look for a way of reconciling its declared policy of "regime change" in Iraq with the need to back away from what looks increasingly like an untenable position.

Some military sources believe that, even though special forces are now thinly stretched, the US will switch to covert operations to try to loosen Saddam's grip on power.

This ties in with what President Bush said after his meeting with the German chancellor, Gerhard Schröder, in Berlin on Thursday: "I told the chancellor that I have no war plans on my desk, which is the truth, and that we've got to use all means at our disposal to deal with Saddam Hussein." The president added that there would be full consultation with allies and that any action would be handled in a "respectful" way.

It remains possible that the US will feel its hand being forced if the Iraqis, sensing American weakness, emerge from their recent quiescence. The Pentagon says Saddam's air defence forces have attacked American and British planes three times in the last three weeks, as they patrolled the southern no-fly zone.

General Pace played this down yesterday: "It's consistent with what's been going on for the past several years," he said.

Offline weazel

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A meaningless treaty.....
« Reply #10 on: May 26, 2002, 02:35:43 PM »
Which actually could be harmful.

Question: Do you feel safer knowing the warheads are removed from the missles and placed in storage and subject to loss or theft?

Personally I feel safer with them on the boosters where they are well guarded and not subject to theft or being sold by some underpaid Russian guard.

This is nothing but a "feel good-look good" ploy by chimpys band of thugs, typical of his administration....

"If you can't dazzle em with your brilliance, baffle em with your roadkill"

Some of you repugs remind me of mushrooms, content to live in the dark and be fed roadkill.

Quote
Originally posted by Eagler
it's a huge step in the right direction

Offline wsnpr

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Bush, Putin sign arms deal
« Reply #11 on: May 26, 2002, 02:42:55 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by capt. apathy
btw, you guys do realize this treaty has nothing to do with detroying warheads, right?  it only addresses "dis-assembly". the parts can be kept (or sold i imagine) for quick and easy re-assembly

Rgr that. Scary thing is what if a stockpiled warhead or two finds its way (stolen, sold) to some terrorist organizations

Offline wsnpr

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Bush, Putin sign arms deal
« Reply #12 on: May 26, 2002, 02:52:11 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Elfenwolf
I don't know, Toad. Somehow two guys sitting in a pool of gasoline arguing over how many matches they are allowed to have doesn't make me feel any safer. In fact, for all you Reagan worshipers, a question- Is the world safer today since the Evil Empire has collapsed, or are we more vulnerable than ever?


Great analogy Elfenwolf  :)

Offline Toad

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Bush, Putin sign arms deal
« Reply #13 on: May 26, 2002, 07:31:45 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Elfenwolf
Is the world safer today since the Evil Empire has collapsed, or are we more vulnerable than ever?


Well, I don't see myself worshipping ANY politician because they're all.. politicians.

That said, yeah, I think the world is a safer place today. We have dangers and vulnerabilities, sure. Absolutely.

But the "Cold War" dangers and vulnerabilities were much, much greater than what we face now.

I look at the balance beam this way:

A mistake, a misunderstanding an overt act of aggression in the OLD days might have meant the exchange of huge numbers of weapons of mass destruction, ie: nukes.

Now, some losers consider that they have scored the game winning touchdown in the Superbowl by crashing two jets into the WTC and one into the Pentagon.

Hmmmmmmm... I'll take the losers with jets in that scenario.

Yep, I feel safer. I HATED that mutual assured destruction thingie.

:)

It would definitely have ruined the pheasant hunting in Kansas with all the radioactivity blowing in from California.
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!

Offline Elfenwolf

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Bush, Putin sign arms deal
« Reply #14 on: May 26, 2002, 10:38:53 PM »
When I was in school we had nuclear attack drills where we had to get under our desks. There's no doubt the cold war produced a very real threat, but how real was that threat given the mutually assured destruction doctrine of the Cold War and how close did the USSR ever come to launching an attack?

I feel we're more vulnerable to nuclear attack today based upon the fragmentation of the Soviet nuclear arsinal and the potential for a terrorist organization acquiring one or two of them. But as far as the agreement to dismantle weapons goes, how can anybody disagree with that? Sure it could go further, but it's a good start for GWB and I hope he continues negotiang reductions in our nuclear stockpiles.