Author Topic: Best modern fighters  (Read 1871 times)

Offline Durr

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Best modern fighters
« on: May 28, 2002, 01:22:06 AM »
In the recent thread titled "F-15 is junk" some discussion arose as to what is the best modern fighter plane.  This is a very subjective question and more than a little vague.  So to limit the question somewhat I want to exclude prototypes, types not currently in service, fighters from the past, and the non air-air mission.  Base your opinions on the capabilities or the combat records of the aircraft in question or both.  

What is the best modern fighter plane at the air-to-air mission?

A similar thread came up last year on the military.com message boards.  I will post my response from then and I welcome all your opinions on the subject.

Offline Durr

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Best modern fighters
« Reply #1 on: May 28, 2002, 01:31:08 AM »
Here is my post from last year (given in response to somebody that asked what was the best fighter plane, without any limiting criteria) It is a top 10 (well actually top 11 list) of modern fighters:
I have had some slight changes of opinion since I first made this post, but I will leave it unaltered for now.  I will say however, that the top 5 in this list are a virtual tie, and my choice for the F-15 as number 1 is influenced by the fact that I am in the USAF and thus somewhat prejudiced towards it, and also due to its impressive combat record.  My rankings for these aircraft were determined by comparing their performance, systems, and combat records.  I didnt include the Eurofighter, Rafale, Su-35, and F-22 since they arent in current active service.  

The question is somewhat broad, as has already been pointed out so I will narrow it down, and answer my own narrowed down version. I will assume that the question is, "What is the best fighter at air-to-air combat currently in service?" This will eliminate oldies that have distinguished records in the past like the P-51 Mustang, and also future wonders such as the F-22 Raptor. Also it will focus the question on the fighters traditional role of air superiority, as opposed to the role that they usually carry out these days, of ground attack. I think that the candidates for this question can be summarized as:
-F-15 Eagle
-F-16 Viper
-F-14 Tomcat
-F-18 Hornet
-Mirage 2000
-Saab Gripen
-Mig-29 Fulcrum
-Su-27 Flanker
-Tornado ADV
-Mig-31 Foxhound
-AIDC Ching-Kuo
These are the best fighters flying today for the air to air mission.
Note that any of these fighters with the right pilot flying it could take on any of the others and win. The most important factor in the equation is the crew manning the plane, not the aircraft itself. That said, pilots being equal, here is how these fighters rate in my opinion.
1. F-15: The Eagle is #1 because it has the best all round blend of desirable attributes, it is at least the 4th or 5th most maneuverable of those listed, has the best radar plus the JTIDs system is installed on many Eagles. It also is the 2d or 3rd fastest of these in top speed. It has probably the longest range of those listed, is quite reliable, and has the best record in air to air combat. The Eagle has seen action with 3 air forces in 4 full blown military campaigns as well as approximately 8 smaller actions. The air to air record is over 100 kills with 0 losses so far. For more info on the F-15 look at the thread on F-15s.

2. Su-27: I am going to give the nod to the Flanker for runner-up. Its a close match for the Eagle in almost all respects. It is more maneuverable, almost as fast, and carries excellent short range missiles. It has the helmet mounted sight as well which helps it close in. It is inferior to the Eagle in longer range engagements however, due to radar and fire control which isnt as good and the superior AMRAAM medium range missile carried by the Eagle.
The Flanker is, as far as I know, untested in air to air combat.

3. Tie F-16 and F-18 and Gripen: These planes have almost identical characteristics in many respects. They are equally adept at air combat. The Viper is faster and slightly more maneuverable under some parameters. The F-18 has the edge in BVR encounters due to better radar. F-18 may have better characteristics in a slow fight too.
F-16 has app. 30 kills/0 losses in air to air combat having seen action with 4 countries. The Hornet has 2kills/possibly 1 loss (disputed) in action with the US only. The Gripen is a little known (in the US at least) plane that is an outstanding fighter. It is in service with the Swedish, and soon with South Africa, and some other countries possibly as well. Its performance characteristics are similar to the F-16. It has some newer technologies in it since it is a newer design. Highly maneuverable, excellent avionics, all in all a superb fighter plane. The Gripen has not seen air combat yet.

6. Mig-29: This jet was a match for the Viper and Hornet when it first became operational but the American fighters have been modernized many times since then. The latest versions of the Fulcrum are still far behind the Western fighters in avionics, radar, and fire control. It does have the helmet mounted sight and the Archer missile, which combined with its outstanding manouverability make it deadly in a close in fight. This is a much better fighter than its dismal combat record would suggest. It hasnt been well served by its pilots. Air combat scores for the Mig-29, app. 2 kills/20+ losses

7. F-14: I know that many will probably say that the venerable Tomcat deserves higher than number seven on this list but the fact remains that the Tomcats day is almost done. It still possesses an outstanding long range radar suite and awesome speed. However, except for the D model it is a little underpowered for this class of fighter, and isnt nearly as manouverable as the others. It is in limited service with the USN and will be phased out within 6 years. Combat record is 5 kills/0 losses in a-a action (note: F-14 may have seen action in service with Iran during the Iran-Iraq war. Reliable figures for any a-a combat if so, are not available).

8. Ching Kuo: This is a very similar aircraft to the F-16. However, it has fairly short range, and slightly inferior avionics to the newer F-16s. This Taiwanese built fighter has yet to see combat.

9. Mirage 2000: Latest and greatest fighter by Dassault, this plane doesnt quite compare with the 8 listed above in many ways. It isnt as manouverable, and its avionics are older among other things. The Rafale will mostly replace this fighter in French service once it becomes operational. Mirage 2000 has never been tested in air-air as far as I know.

10. Tornado ADV: Not manouverable enough to compete against the others listed here, the Tornado is still a good fighter. It is quite fast especially at low level. Its avionics and missile setup isnt bad either but overall its not competitive with the more modern fighters out there in capability. No air to air record as far as I know.

11. Mig-31: The choice for number eleven was easy. This one barely made the cut for being included with the best. It is the fastest fighter here, but other than that it leads in no category, rather it is in the bottom for most. It is heavy, unmanouverable, poor range, and questionable reliability. It has rather good avionics and radar for a Russian fighter but with equal pilots it wouldnt last long against any other fighter on this list most likely. No air to air combat record for the Foxhound as far as I know.

Offline Hortlund

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Best modern fighters
« Reply #2 on: May 28, 2002, 01:44:23 AM »
Well, I guess I'll go first.

As I said in the other thread, as far as I have understood these things (not being a fighter pilot) in the modern air-to-air combat situation weaponry, avionics and countermeasures are far more important than the manuverability or speed of the fighter. (a good example of this would be the Falklands where crappy british Harriers dominated the skies thanks to the capabilities of the new Sidwinder missile (was it the aim-9m?)

It really doesnt matter how fast you are or how good you can turn, there will always be a missile that is faster than you and can turn inside you. What becomes crucial is who gets to fire the first shot, and what your chances are to avoid a missile heading for you. That means radar, ecm, weapon systems etc will decide who wins the fight.

The above pretty much disqualifies any Soviet, Chinese, Arab or whathaveyou fighter from the discussion. They simply lack the technology we have in the west.

If we would compare western fighters though, we'll find that most of them use the same (US) weapons, and they all have pretty similar capabilities when it comes to radar and ecm etc.

So if we remove weapons and avionics from the equation (since they are of similar capabilities) tactics and pilot quality becomes the next factor. Im gonna ignore that one too though, because I strongly suspect that we will never agree on what country trains the better pilots :) (My bet is Israel though).

Hrm, I guess I'm rambling here, but if we remove all the above, what aircraft is the best fighter? I'd like to offer the JAS-39 as my bet. It is small, fast, agile, uses US weapons and (I think) British avionics. It was specifically built to be able to use the Swedish wartime air base-system so it has short take off and landing capability (where we move our airforce from the airfields and base our aircraft on highways to reduce vunerability). It has roughly the same speed as teh US fighters mentioned, and it will turn inside all of them (at least according to my sources).
« Last Edit: May 28, 2002, 01:48:35 AM by Hortlund »

Offline Dux

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Best modern fighters
« Reply #3 on: May 28, 2002, 07:58:39 AM »
All those fighters are more or less equal in performance... what really makes the difference is the peripheral infrastructure (intelligence, communications, signal processing, surveillance, target handover, jamming, etc.). On that basis, the F-15 will always come out on top.
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Offline Sandman

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« Reply #4 on: May 28, 2002, 11:48:09 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Dux
All those fighters are more or less equal in performance... what really makes the difference is the peripheral infrastructure (intelligence, communications, signal processing, surveillance, target handover, jamming, etc.). On that basis, the F-15 will always come out on top.


Sounds to me that you have absolutely no knowledge of Navy infrastructure. IMNSHO, it's every bit as capable as USAF.

Oh... and which F/A-18 are we talking about? The F/A-18C/D is a completely different aircraft than the F/A-18E/F. The E/F isn't a modification of the C/D. It's an entirely different aircraft that happens to resemble the C/D.
sand

Offline midnight Target

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« Reply #5 on: May 28, 2002, 11:49:58 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Sandman_SBM


Sounds to me that you have absolutely no knowledge of Navy infrastructure. IMNSHO, it's every bit as capable as USAF.

Oh... and which F/A-18 are we talking about? The F/A-18C/D is a completely different aircraft than the F/A-18E/F. The E/F isn't a modification of the C/D. It's an entirely different aircraft that happens to resemble the C/D.



Did I see a little white hat spinning into the air?

:eek:

Offline Sandman

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« Reply #6 on: May 28, 2002, 11:55:27 AM »
Mebbe a little...

Used to be in the Navy. I was an intercept controller (OS).
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Offline Dux

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« Reply #7 on: May 28, 2002, 12:25:10 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Sandman_SBM


Sounds to me that you have absolutely no knowledge of Navy infrastructure. IMNSHO, it's every bit as capable as USAF.


lol, I'm not picking sides as far as US interservice rivalry goes... I'm counting it all as one service. And in that context, I think the F-15 still has the slightest of advantages.


... and you'd be surprised as to what I have knowledge of. :)
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Offline Sandman

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« Reply #8 on: May 28, 2002, 12:33:30 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Dux


lol, I'm not picking sides as far as US interservice rivalry goes... I'm counting it all as one service. And in that context, I think the F-15 still has the slightest of advantages.


... and you'd be surprised as to what I have knowledge of. :)


I can sum up the USAF advantage in one aircraft:



Then again, can't really call it an advantage... The USAF doesn't have any of these:

« Last Edit: May 28, 2002, 12:37:09 PM by Sandman »
sand

Offline Dux

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« Reply #9 on: May 28, 2002, 12:39:57 PM »
Yup, Sandman, that's very true. You'll be happy to know that the E-2C is now undergoing a MAJOR upgrade study, and will soon be just as capable as the E-3.

... that is, as capable as the E-3 is today... Muahahahahaha!
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Offline Sandman

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« Reply #10 on: May 28, 2002, 12:44:09 PM »
But... by then the Navy will probably have the Growler. :)

sand

Offline vorticon

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« Reply #11 on: May 28, 2002, 01:05:56 PM »
hmmm i would have to say the up and coming joint assuault fighter or something like that cvant quit remembver the full name (supposed to be known as f 35 or something like htat i think)

Offline Sandman

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« Reply #12 on: May 28, 2002, 01:08:45 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by vorticon
hmmm i would have to say the up and coming joint assuault fighter or something like that cvant quit remembver the full name (supposed to be known as f 35 or something like htat i think)


You mean the F35... Joint Strike Fighter.

sand

Offline vorticon

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« Reply #13 on: May 28, 2002, 01:09:55 PM »
yup thats the one

Offline Nath[BDP]

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« Reply #14 on: May 28, 2002, 02:22:58 PM »
The one with me piloting it.
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