Author Topic: Buff guns are NOT more powerful  (Read 190 times)

Offline Midnight

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1809
      • http://www.brauncomustangs.org
Buff guns are NOT more powerful
« on: May 28, 2002, 01:43:34 PM »
All you buff gun whiners, please make note...

The buff guns are not more powerful than standard guns, .50cal or otherwise.

There are two factors that give the impression that the buff guns hit harder than standard guns.

1. ALL buff guns, not just those able to 'see' you fire at you, regardless of where you attack from.
PROOF
Fly a buff and have a friend be a gunner for you. go to external view (F3) and have your gunner pan the guns and fire in various directions.

What you will see is ALL guns firing at the intended target, regardless of angle. I did this several times with Pugg. I was the pilot in a B-17 and he was the gunner. He went to the chin turret and angled it up to +45 degrees. When he started firing, I saw all the guns (Including tail, ball turret and both waist guns) point forward and up +45 degrees. ALL guns had tracers flying. At that angle, the tail, ball and waist gunners had no shot, but fired anyway. I cold graphically see the tail guns reversed on their mounting to fire forward.

Did the same test in the B-26. Pugg shot straight back to 6 o'clock. The nose gun went backwards in the bubble nose (barrel pointing right down the centerline of the fueslage) and began firing. The ammo counters only go down for the facing guns, but all guns still fire.

What this means is that you are taking fire from 11 .50 cal guns when attacking a B-17 and 7 .50 cal guns when attacking a B-26.

2. In almost all cases, you are flying INTO the bullets of a bomber. As you attack, and the bomber shoots back, you are flying into the bomber's bullet stream. The result is a high kinetic energy on impact, causing more damage in a shorter time. The faster your closure rate, the higher the kinetic energy.

3. All .50s can kill fast at convergence. I have on many occasions, shot down other planes with less than 50 rounds when I hit them at convergence on a diving attack pass.

Yes, you may think you are getting killed too fast by a B-17, but how many rounds do you think are coming at you if he fires a 1 second burst?

Consider #1 as true, and you have 11x .50 cals firing 400rpm for one second. That is about 70 bullets hitting your plane. If they hit at convergence, do you have any idea what that would do?

I've not seen what 70 .50s (API) will do to aircraft skins and framing, but I have seen what 50 rounds of .303 (ball ammo) will do to a pair of beer kegs and 2x4 framing - TOTAL DESTRUCTION.

So I submit to you, that 50 - 70 rounds of API (Armor Piercing Incindiary) .50 cal ammo hitting an aircraft will tear through the skin, mangle the framing and cause fire and all sorts of other MAJOR problems to occur, such as hydralic oil and fuel leaks/fires.

Buff guns are the same as other guns. Don't get shot, you will be fine.

BTW, #1 will hopefully be fixed in 1.10, so that is one less thing to worry about.

Offline AKSWulfe

  • Parolee
  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3812
Re: Buff guns are NOT more powerful
« Reply #1 on: May 28, 2002, 01:46:38 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Midnight
1. ALL buff guns, not just those able to 'see' you fire at you, regardless of where you attack from.
PROOF
Fly a buff and have a friend be a gunner for you. go to external view (F3) and have your gunner pan the guns and fire in various directions.

 


I'm not arguing whether or not they are porked or not.. but I think this statement is false.

He's sending you info over a network- all planes have a simplified model compared to the one you fly.

So I believe that while they all have tracers, they may not be all firing.

A better test would be to fly the plane yourself, jump into a gunner seat and do the above test yourself.

Then you'll get the proof and some pudding too!
-SW

Offline MuadDib of Dune

  • Copper Member
  • **
  • Posts: 112
Buff guns are NOT more powerful
« Reply #2 on: May 28, 2002, 01:46:41 PM »
This is supposed to get fixed in 1.10

Offline Pyro

  • Administrator
  • Administrator
  • *****
  • Posts: 4020
      • http://www.hitechcreations.com
Buff guns are NOT more powerful
« Reply #3 on: May 28, 2002, 01:55:19 PM »
Interesting, I've heard people talk about all guns on bombers shooting through the plane, but it's easily tested and dismissed if you hop into a bomber and shoot while panning the gun around.  In this case, did your gunner report that he could see all the guns firing?  Were all the ammo counts at the various gun positions decrementing?

Offline jordi

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 6116
      • noseart
Re: Buff guns are NOT more powerful
« Reply #4 on: May 28, 2002, 02:20:26 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Midnight
Did the same test in the B-26. Pugg shot straight back to 6 o'clock. The nose gun went backwards in the bubble nose (barrel pointing right down the centerline of the fueslage) and began firing. The ammo counters only go down for the facing guns, but all guns still fire.

What this means is that you are taking fire from 11 .50 cal guns when attacking a B-17 and 7 .50 cal guns when attacking a B-26.


My GUESS is that if the counter for a gun does NOT GO DOWN then even it it LOOKS Like it is firing you are not being hit by 11 guns - just those that show a decrease in ammo fired.

Mike "DmdJordi" Bowman
AW - AH Pilot 199? - 200?
Pulled out of Mothballs for DGS Allied Bomber Group Leader :)

Nose art

Offline Beefcake

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2285
Buff guns are NOT more powerful
« Reply #5 on: May 28, 2002, 02:21:20 PM »
Pyro, whenever I have a gunner on my buff, it -LOOKS- like all the turrets turn and fire at the same time, however this is a false impression. Whenever I have been a gunner or when I gun and fly myself, only the guns that can fire on the bandit will fire. I have watched the ammo counters. However, sometimes when I get close to a buff that is firing (friendly or not) it LOOKS like all the guns are firing, but I know they're not. I don't know if this helps or not.
Retired Bomber Dweeb - 71 "Eagle" Squadron RAF

Offline Midnight

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1809
      • http://www.brauncomustangs.org
Buff guns are NOT more powerful
« Reply #6 on: May 28, 2002, 03:34:39 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Pyro
Interesting, I've heard people talk about all guns on bombers shooting through the plane, but it's easily tested and dismissed if you hop into a bomber and shoot while panning the gun around.  In this case, did your gunner report that he could see all the guns firing?  Were all the ammo counts at the various gun positions decrementing?


This is my point, basically...

When you gun yourself, only the guns that you see shooting appear to be shooting, while to the other guy, it appears to be all of them.

So, which is right?

Are ALL the guns firing but only draining ammo on the FE of the guy shooting them, or are the other guns that appear to be firing not firing at all?

Judging by some of the quick kills inflicted by bomber guns, it is my opinion that ALL guns are firing, regardless of what the gunner sees. If the FE of the attacking plane sees 11 sets of tracers, his FE is going to apply 11 tracers worth of damage.

My guess is that there is an obscure program bug that no one has found yet.

Offline hitech

  • Administrator
  • Administrator
  • *****
  • Posts: 12425
      • http://www.hitechcreations.com
Buff guns are NOT more powerful
« Reply #7 on: May 28, 2002, 03:41:01 PM »
You assume incorectly Midnight, and btw this works as intendended.
All bullets you ever see besides the ones on your FE when you  puls the trigger are nothing but effects. They can not do any damage.

 It's a fairly expensive in terms of either CPU or band width to show only the guns that are realy shooting .

Hence I choose to just show them all firing.

Offline Midnight

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1809
      • http://www.brauncomustangs.org
Buff guns are NOT more powerful
« Reply #8 on: May 28, 2002, 04:42:06 PM »
Fair enough.

Come to think of it, I should have thought of that in the first place.

If I recall, you had explained how gunnery works before.

My FE sees that I shot at another plane and records 20 hits (I see them as hit sprites)

My FE sends the 20 hits to the server to let it know that I hit the target.

The server tells the other plane that it has recieved 20 hits from my plane.

The other plane's FE calculates the damage based on the the hits the server indicated.

The other plane's FE send the server basic damage information (I.e. wing tip busted)

The server tells my FE that the other plane has recieved damage and has a broken wingtip.

Yep.. that's about right I think.

So if my FE tells me I am only shooting with one gun, it doesn't matter what the other guy sees. Kind of like control surface deflection. I don't see the other guy's surfaces moving because that data is not sent because it would be too much data and effect performance. The same with buff guns, the server just tells me the other guy is shooting, and in a basic direction, but doesn't indicate exactly what guns, again to save server performance. So it appears all guns are shooting, when they actually are not.

Thanks for clearing up HT. That makes sense now.

Offline Arcon

  • Zinc Member
  • *
  • Posts: 63
Buff guns are NOT more powerful
« Reply #9 on: May 28, 2002, 05:55:58 PM »
Its not a bug. Its a feature.

When I log on in the MA, the server doesn't just stop what its doing and send a ton 'o packets to get me up to speed. Takes some time. While I watch friendlies spawn as enemy p51, and the ack fires at them.
No ack actually fired.
My FE mimicked what it thought should be happening, because it still didnt have proper and complete information.
I guess bandwidth is saved this way. Not all bullets are sent from one FE to another.  Going past a CV at low altitude with several planes would choke bandwidth on the server.
The FE mimicks what it thinks it should see in this case, and show bullets where there may or may not be any.

Am I understanding this correctly?

Offline Kaz

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1063
Buff guns are NOT more powerful
« Reply #10 on: May 28, 2002, 06:14:48 PM »
i don't get many kills with buff guns but when i do the planes are most often dead on my six not moving at all or very little firing away as i fire back guess who usually wins? other people i go up against are really good always moving, coming in at steep angles (from the sides or above/below where i can't aim or it's extremely difficult to track them) 'til they're really close and bam i'm dead. takes practice i still get killed alot when attacking buffs but i'm not complaining having experienced both sides.