FBI granted more power

[Octavius]

http://my.aol.com/news/news_story.psp?type=1&cat=0100&id=0205301936090059

Civil liberties groups criticized the move. But President Bush said, ``We intend to honor our Constitution and respect the freedoms that we hold so dear.''

``The FBI needed to change,'' said the president. ``It was an organization full of fine people who loved America but the organization didn't meet the times.''

What horse toejam...!  "freedoms that we hold so dear" .  I'll go out on a limb here.. if you think about it, this is just making legal what the FBI can already do.  Sigh... either way, I dont like it.

[Sandman]

Ashcroft said the powers would be used only ``for the purpose of detecting and preventing terrorism.'' Nothing in the guidelines would permit the FBI to routinely build files on people or organizations, he said.

Hmmm... Ashcroft must think that we haven't noticed all the different ways they've found to apply RICO laws or the DMCA.

[Tac]

worry about what they AINT telling you.

[MuadDib of Dune]

Would you rather have privacy and be attacked and destroyed with it or would you rather have the people fighting for you be able to stop and kill the bastards before they loose a dirty nuke on Manhatten or the capitol, or your hometown.


Screw it, these bastards of allah know they can use our own laws against us and they will.  I say give the government whatever it takes to blow these MuFUs away.  I live a clean life and have nothing to hide from and have no fear of my government "when its fighting to protect me, my family, my community, my state, my nation".

Kill them before they kill us.  Civil rights come AFTER national security.  Otherwise we give them the rope (our civil liberties) they will use to hang us.  Sad but true fact of life.

If there is another absolute way to insure our absolute survival without spying on potentiol adversaries within our own borders  then please explain how to do it.  Im listening.......

One thing is for sure, our defense agencies failed us on Sep11 to the tune of about 3000 Amercian lives.  If indeed our own civil liberties protected, directly or indirectly, these lunatics then we had better figure out some way to be able to spy on these enemies within our own borders.  Sadly, some, if not many, of these people probably are US citizens.  They must be found out and stopped before the casualty list numbers in the tens of thousands or more.....

[Sandman]

Originally posted by MuadDib of Dune
Kill them before they kill us.  Civil rights come AFTER national security.  Otherwise we give them the rope (our civil liberties) they will use to hang us.  Sad but true fact of life.
 

What's really scary is that some people actually believe this tripe.

[weazel]

On March 23, 1775....  Patrick Henry spoke words that still ring true...

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No man thinks more highly than I do of the patriotism, as well as abilities, of the very worthy gentlemen who have just addressed the House. But different men often see the same subject in different lights; and, therefore, I hope it will not be thought disrespectful to those gentlemen if, entertaining as I do opinions of a character very opposite to theirs, I shall speak forth my sentiments freely and without reserve. This is no time for ceremony. The questing before the House is one of awful moment to this country. For my own part, I consider it as nothing less than a question of freedom or slavery; and in proportion to the magnitude of the subject ought to be the freedom of the debate. It is only in this way that we can hope to arrive at truth, and fulfill the great responsibility which we hold to God and our country. Should I keep back my opinions at such a time, through fear of giving offense, I should consider myself as guilty of treason towards my country, and of an act of disloyalty toward the Majesty of Heaven, which I revere above all earthly kings.

Mr. President, it is natural to man to indulge in the illusions of hope. We are apt to shut our eyes against a painful truth, and listen to the song of that siren till she transforms us into beasts. Is this the part of wise men, engaged in a great and arduous struggle for liberty? Are we disposed to be of the number of those who, having eyes, see not, and, having ears, hear not, the things which so nearly concern their temporal salvation? For my part, whatever anguish of spirit it may cost, I am willing to know the whole truth; to know the worst, and to provide for it.

I have but one lamp by which my feet are guided, and that is the lamp of experience. I know of no way of judging of the future but by the past. And judging by the past, I wish to know what there has been in the conduct of the British ministry for the last ten years to justify those hopes with which gentlemen have been pleased to solace themselves and the House. Is it that insidious smile with which our petition has been lately received? Trust it not, sir; it will prove a snare to your feet. Suffer not yourselves to be betrayed with a kiss. Ask yourselves how this gracious reception of our petition comports with those warlike preparations which cover our waters and darken our land. Are fleets and armies necessary to a work of love and reconciliation? Have we shown ourselves so unwilling to be reconciled that force must be called in to win back our love? Let us not deceive ourselves, sir. These are the implements of war and subjugation; the last arguments to which kings resort. I ask gentlemen, sir, what means this martial array, if its purpose be not to force us to submission? Can gentlemen assign any other possible motive for it? Has Great Britain any enemy, in this quarter of the world, to call for all this accumulation of navies and armies? No, sir, she has none. They are meant for us: they can be meant for no other. They are sent over to bind and rivet upon us those chains which the British ministry have been so long forging. And what have we to oppose to them? Shall we try argument? Sir, we have been trying that for the last ten years. Have we anything new to offer upon the subject? Nothing. We have held the subject up in every light of which it is capable; but it has been all in vain. Shall we resort to entreaty and humble supplication? What terms shall we find which have not been already exhausted? Let us not, I beseech you, sir, deceive ourselves. Sir, we have done everything that could be done to avert the storm which is now coming on. We have petitioned; we have remonstrated; we have supplicated; we have prostrated ourselves before the throne, and have implored its interposition to arrest the tyrannical hands of the ministry and Parliament. Our petitions have been slighted; our remonstrances have produced additional violence and insult; our supplications have been disregarded; and we have been spurned, with contempt, from the foot of the throne! In vain, after these things, may we indulge the fond hope of peace and reconciliation. There is no longer any room for hope. If we wish to be free-- if we mean to preserve inviolate those inestimable privileges for which we have been so long contending--if we mean not basely to abandon the noble struggle in which we have been so long engaged, and which we have pledged ourselves never to abandon until the glorious object of our contest shall be obtained--we must fight! I repeat it, sir, we must fight! An appeal to arms and to the God of hosts is all that is left us!

They tell us, sir, that we are weak; unable to cope with so formidable an adversary. But when shall we be stronger? Will it be the next week, or the next year? Will it be when we are totally disarmed, and when a British guard shall be stationed in every house? Shall we gather strength by irresolution and inaction? Shall we acquire the means of effectual resistance by lying supinely on our backs and hugging the delusive phantom of hope, until our enemies shall have bound us hand and foot? Sir, we are not weak if we make a proper use of those means which the God of nature hath placed in our power. The millions of people, armed in the holy cause of liberty, and in such a country as that which we possess, are invincible by any force which our enemy can send against us. Besides, sir, we shall not fight our battles alone. There is a just God who presides over the destinies of nations, and who will raise up friends to fight our battles for us. The battle, sir, is not to the strong alone; it is to the vigilant, the active, the brave. Besides, sir, we have no election. If we were base enough to desire it, it is now too late to retire from the contest. There is no retreat but in submission and slavery! Our chains are forged! Their clanking may be heard on the plains of Boston! The war is inevitable--and let it come! I repeat it, sir, let it come.

It is in vain, sir, to extenuate the matter. Gentlemen may cry, Peace, Peace-- but there is no peace. The war is actually begun! The next gale that sweeps from the north will bring to our ears the clash of resounding arms! Our brethren are already in the field! Why stand we here idle? What is it that gentlemen wish? What would they have? Is life so dear, or peace so sweet, as to be purchased at the price of chains and slavery? Forbid it, Almighty God!

I KNOW NOT WHAT COURSE OTHERS MAY TAKE; BUT AS FOR ME, GIVE ME LIBERTY OR GIVE ME DEATH!
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If Americans are so frightened, or our nations spirit has fallen so low that we find curtailment of our civil liberties acceptable, then we have already lost the war....and deserve whatever fate waits for us.  

[hawk220]

THATS IT!... I'm checking my sheep for hidden microphones...

[easymo]

Weren't the Republicans the party that talks so much about less government interference?  Did I miss a memo?

[wsnpr]

I wonder who or what groups will effectively monitor the FBI to ensure they won't abuse their new-found powers.

[wsnpr]

Originally posted by easymo
Weren't the Republicans the party that talks so much about less government interference?  Did I miss a memo?

They were talking in generalities, but only in government interference in big business and less taxes. They seem to look at the ACLU as a nuisance and not really necessary. They want to curtail a woman's right to choose. They want increased spending for the military (there can never be too much money spent on defense), and the intelligence community (even though most of the money seems to go to covert ops rather than intelligence gathering). They want less spending on 'social' programs (to help balance the budget).

The liberals seem to be opposite to the above. They tend to want to throw money at 'social' programs (even if ill conceived and executed). They will generally support the raising of taxes to pay for all the programs.

Or so it seems. (and yes, the above are generalities.)

[Eagler]

Hit the deck, the black helicopters are coming!!!



We, law abiding citizens, have nothing to fear, do you???

[Thrawn]

Originally posted by Eagler
Hit the deck, the black helicopters are coming!!!



We, law abiding citizens, have nothing to fear, do you???

Sure you do, your civil liberties are being chipped away.  If the US keeps this up, then law abiding will become irrelavent.

[Elfenwolf]

Uh...You guys are just now getting concerned this is happening?

[midnight Target]

Hmmmmmmm, can anyone think of a "law abiding ctizen" who has been persecuted for saying the wrong thing at the wrong time? Or even standing up for their rights as an American? Anyone here ever read about Tail Gunner Joe McCarthy?

"I've got nothing to hide" may be true for now. Many many of those who were blackballed and even imprisoned by the HUAC thought exactly the same thing.

[weazel]

Living in the United States is like being caught in a time warp.

Some of us are still fighting the Civil War, some of us are still marching for civil rights, some of us still battle over elections past...and like it or not, all of us are in this together.

In discussions of this kind there are certain primary truths, or first principles, upon which all subsequent reasoning must depend.

American government by design rests on the solid basis of *THE CONSENT OF THE PEOPLE*. National power is intended to flow from this basis of legitimate authority.

It is generally recognized that the government commonly intends the Public Good. In regards to errors governments can make, history demonstrates they don't always reason right about the means of promoting the Public Good.

The Constitution should be the standard of construction for new law, and wherever there is an evident conflict, the law must give way to the Constitution.

LIFE, LIBERTY & THE PURSUIT OF HAPPINESS ARE THE PRINCIPALS  OUR CONSTITUTION IS BASED ON!

The dissolution of these principles will more surely overthrow the liberties of America than the whole force of the enemy. If the people are vigilant in guarding these principles they cannot be subdued, but if they lose vigilance they become ready to surrender their liberty to the first external or internal invader.  

History shows that natural progression is for liberty to yield and government to accumulate power,  fondness for power is ingrained in most men, and once power is acquired it is commonly abused.

There are more instances of the abridgment of the freedom of the people by gradual and silent encroachments of those in power than by violent uprisings.

Honor, justice, and humanity, forbid us to surrender the freedom which we received from our ancestors.... and which future generations have the right to receive from us.

The US will crumble under the infamy and guilt of resigning future generations to the wretched life which inevitably awaits them if we saddle them with hereditary bondage.

We are the ultimate  guardians of our liberty, if we expect to reap the blessings of freedom we must support these principles....... the happiness and liberty of ours and future generations depends on it.