FBI granted more power

[Udie]

Originally posted by weazel
On March 23, 1775....  Patrick Henry spoke words that still ring true...

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No man thinks more highly than I do of the patriotism, as well as abilities, of the very worthy gentlemen who have just addressed the House. But different men often see the same subject in different lights; and, therefore, I hope it will not be thought disrespectful to those gentlemen if, entertaining as I do opinions of a character very opposite to theirs, I shall speak forth my sentiments freely and without reserve. This is no time for ceremony. The questing before the House is one of awful moment to this country. For my own part, I consider it as nothing less than a question of freedom or slavery; and in proportion to the magnitude of the subject ought to be the freedom of the debate. It is only in this way that we can hope to arrive at truth, and fulfill the great responsibility which we hold to God and our country. Should I keep back my opinions at such a time, through fear of giving offense, I should consider myself as guilty of treason towards my country, and of an act of disloyalty toward the Majesty of Heaven, which I revere above all earthly kings.

Mr. President, it is natural to man to indulge in the illusions of hope. We are apt to shut our eyes against a painful truth, and listen to the song of that siren till she transforms us into beasts. Is this the part of wise men, engaged in a great and arduous struggle for liberty? Are we disposed to be of the number of those who, having eyes, see not, and, having ears, hear not, the things which so nearly concern their temporal salvation? For my part, whatever anguish of spirit it may cost, I am willing to know the whole truth; to know the worst, and to provide for it.

I have but one lamp by which my feet are guided, and that is the lamp of experience. I know of no way of judging of the future but by the past. And judging by the past, I wish to know what there has been in the conduct of the British ministry for the last ten years to justify those hopes with which gentlemen have been pleased to solace themselves and the House. Is it that insidious smile with which our petition has been lately received? Trust it not, sir; it will prove a snare to your feet. Suffer not yourselves to be betrayed with a kiss. Ask yourselves how this gracious reception of our petition comports with those warlike preparations which cover our waters and darken our land. Are fleets and armies necessary to a work of love and reconciliation? Have we shown ourselves so unwilling to be reconciled that force must be called in to win back our love? Let us not deceive ourselves, sir. These are the implements of war and subjugation; the last arguments to which kings resort. I ask gentlemen, sir, what means this martial array, if its purpose be not to force us to submission? Can gentlemen assign any other possible motive for it? Has Great Britain any enemy, in this quarter of the world, to call for all this accumulation of navies and armies? No, sir, she has none. They are meant for us: they can be meant for no other. They are sent over to bind and rivet upon us those chains which the British ministry have been so long forging. And what have we to oppose to them? Shall we try argument? Sir, we have been trying that for the last ten years. Have we anything new to offer upon the subject? Nothing. We have held the subject up in every light of which it is capable; but it has been all in vain. Shall we resort to entreaty and humble supplication? What terms shall we find which have not been already exhausted? Let us not, I beseech you, sir, deceive ourselves. Sir, we have done everything that could be done to avert the storm which is now coming on. We have petitioned; we have remonstrated; we have supplicated; we have prostrated ourselves before the throne, and have implored its interposition to arrest the tyrannical hands of the ministry and Parliament. Our petitions have been slighted; our remonstrances have produced additional violence and insult; our supplications have been disregarded; and we have been spurned, with contempt, from the foot of the throne! In vain, after these things, may we indulge the fond hope of peace and reconciliation. There is no longer any room for hope. If we wish to be free-- if we mean to preserve inviolate those inestimable privileges for which we have been so long contending--if we mean not basely to abandon the noble struggle in which we have been so long engaged, and which we have pledged ourselves never to abandon until the glorious object of our contest shall be obtained--we must fight! I repeat it, sir, we must fight! An appeal to arms and to the God of hosts is all that is left us!

They tell us, sir, that we are weak; unable to cope with so formidable an adversary. But when shall we be stronger? Will it be the next week, or the next year? Will it be when we are totally disarmed, and when a British guard shall be stationed in every house? Shall we gather strength by irresolution and inaction? Shall we acquire the means of effectual resistance by lying supinely on our backs and hugging the delusive phantom of hope, until our enemies shall have bound us hand and foot? Sir, we are not weak if we make a proper use of those means which the God of nature hath placed in our power. The millions of people, armed in the holy cause of liberty, and in such a country as that which we possess, are invincible by any force which our enemy can send against us. Besides, sir, we shall not fight our battles alone. There is a just God who presides over the destinies of nations, and who will raise up friends to fight our battles for us. The battle, sir, is not to the strong alone; it is to the vigilant, the active, the brave. Besides, sir, we have no election. If we were base enough to desire it, it is now too late to retire from the contest. There is no retreat but in submission and slavery! Our chains are forged! Their clanking may be heard on the plains of Boston! The war is inevitable--and let it come! I repeat it, sir, let it come.

It is in vain, sir, to extenuate the matter. Gentlemen may cry, Peace, Peace-- but there is no peace. The war is actually begun! The next gale that sweeps from the north will bring to our ears the clash of resounding arms! Our brethren are already in the field! Why stand we here idle? What is it that gentlemen wish? What would they have? Is life so dear, or peace so sweet, as to be purchased at the price of chains and slavery? Forbid it, Almighty God!

I KNOW NOT WHAT COURSE OTHERS MAY TAKE; BUT AS FOR ME, GIVE ME LIBERTY OR GIVE ME DEATH!
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If Americans are so frightened, or our nations spirit has fallen so low that we find curtailment of our civil liberties acceptable, then we have already lost the war....and deserve whatever fate waits for us.  

 Weazel we've had our moments, but I agree 100% with your statment. ....

[MuadDib of Dune]

If Americans are so frightened, or our nations spirit has fallen so low that we find curtailment of our civil liberties acceptable, then we have already lost the war....and deserve whatever fate waits for us.
====
I dont buy into this low quality rational at all.....Pure Self defeatism.  It provides aid and comfort to the enemy as far as Im concerned.  Bad mojo.......


I find that the FBI and other intelligence agencies must be able to discover and defeat terrorists within the borders of the United States.  I support whatever action is neccessary to defend the United States.  The ACLU would seem to prefer to allow the terrorists to be protected and in fact hidden from discovery as a matter of civil liberties.  Screw that.  What good are civil liberties if the nation is effectively destroyed?  Martial law will likely occur as a result of a large strike against this country carried out from within our own borders.  How then will the bill of rights be preserved?

A wise man may say today:
I will sacrifice what liberty neccessary in the war today, so that freedom survives for all of us tomorrow.

Rather than a truly stupid moron perhaps saying:
We will all die for civil liberties today, tomorrow will not matter but at least we will have felt good.

sandman,
Come back with something worthwhile to say this time.  Like perhaps a valid point of view, if you have one.

[Eagler]

I think the FBI/CIA - your local police (put your fav law enforcement agency here) seems to be dam if they do and dam if they don't by some of you all...

There is a cost for our freedom, nothing is free

Take your anger out on those who caused this latest mess, not those who are appointed to protect us from THEM!

[Thrawn]

Maudib, Eagler, the cost of freedom is your freedom?

The what the heck is the point of stuggling for freedom in the first place.  So people like you can hand it over at the first opportunity?

Are you suggesting that you should give up your rights as a temporary measure?  The "War Against Terror" is a protracted thing.  How long are you willing to give up your rights for.  Don't you think that perhaps your goverment and it's agencies might not be to thrill about giving up these powers.

Would you be willing to give up your right to bear arms.  After all firearms are rediculusly easy to get in the States.  The terrorists could outfit a whole army.

[Thrawn]

Originally posted by MuadDib of Dune
If Americans are so frightened, or our nations spirit has fallen so low that we find curtailment of our civil liberties acceptable, then we have already lost the war....and deserve whatever fate waits for us.
====

A wise man may say today:
I will sacrifice what liberty neccessary in the war today, so that freedom survives for all of us tomorrow.

Rather than a truly stupid moron perhaps saying:
We will all die for civil liberties today, tomorrow will not matter but at least we will have felt good.

A man with a tiny noodle and poor arguements might say:
sandman,
Come back with something worthwhile to say this time.  Like perhaps a valid point of view, if you have one.

[Eagler]

I guess what I'm saying is that the actions taken today and more than likely those that have to be taken in the future, have not nor will not change my lifestyle, my day to day, one bit. I will feel better knowing at least the gov is taking steps to protect my family and I from ppl who'd love nothing more in this world than see me & mine dead and are willing to die to that cause...

Those of you complaining about the new "powers" the FBI have today that you don't think they had yesterday, what would you suggest they do???

The libs squeak about these actions out of one corner of their mouths while squeakin out the other corner that the current admin did not do enough to stop 9/11.

Like I said, dam if they do and they are dammed if they don't ... can't have it both ways. Thank your friendly terrorist for that.

[MuadDib of Dune]

Thawn said:
A man with a tiny noodle and poor arguements might say:
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thrawn,  You add absolutely no value to the discourse here
with such comments.

[Thrawn]

Originally posted by MuadDib of Dune
Thawn said:
A man with a tiny noodle and poor arguements might say:
====
thrawn,  You add absolutely no value to the discourse here
with such comments.

And you think this does?

sandman,
Come back with something worthwhile to say this time. Like perhaps a valid point of view, if you have one.

[MuadDib of Dune]

Yeah but I guess you dont see the difference.

I also think sandman can defend himself just fine without you.

You know, you had some valid points but Im not even going to waste any more than the time its already taken to type this on your account.

Cyas

[Nifty]

Here's what they're afraid of happening with the new powers...

"They are using the terrorism crisis as a cover for a wide range of changes, some of which have nothing to do with terrorism,'' said James X. Dempsey, deputy director of the Center for Democracy and Technology. Dempsey predicted that one new tool, the power to mine commercial databases, will be used in drug and child pornography and stock fraud and gambling and "every other type of investigation the FBI does.''

So catching drug dealers, child porn rings, etc is a bad thing?

[Thrawn]

Originally posted by MuadDib of Dune
Yeah but I guess you dont see the difference.

I also think sandman can defend himself just fine without you.

You know, you had some valid points but Im not even going to waste any more than the time its already taken to type this on your account.

Cyas

Pretty much figured that would be your reaction.  Did your mom tell you to get of the computer?

[AKSWulfe]

Originally posted by Nifty
So catching drug dealers is a bad thing?

Well... if he's selling me weed... yes!


Seriously, how can you people believe these new laws are anything more than a front for what they've been doing anyway?

I'm not saying it's right, it's wrong as hell. It's just now their making laws for it.

Think on this before you believe these new laws are a good thing- they had the information to stop the World Trade Centers attacks- but all the information pointing to these things wasn't in the right place. It was scattered about and there weren't any RED flags going "Ding! The first use of airplanes as missles will take place very soon."

You think these new laws do anything to help the FBI, and other investigating bureaus/agencies, to get MORE information on potential terrorist attacks?

Phew, you are one dilluded individual if you believe that. It only makes it legal for the government to spy on it's citizens.

So much for "privacy of your own home", huh?
-SW

[midnight Target]

Originally posted by MuadDib of Dune
If Americans are so frightened, or our nations spirit has fallen so low that we find curtailment of our civil liberties acceptable, then we have already lost the war....and deserve whatever fate waits for us.
====
I dont buy into this low quality rational at all.....Pure Self defeatism.  It provides aid and comfort to the enemy as far as Im concerned.  Bad mojo.......


I find that the FBI and other intelligence agencies must be able to discover and defeat terrorists within the borders of the United States.  I support whatever action is neccessary to defend the United States.  The ACLU would seem to prefer to allow the terrorists to be protected and in fact hidden from discovery as a matter of civil liberties.  Screw that.  What good are civil liberties if the nation is effectively destroyed?  Martial law will likely occur as a result of a large strike against this country carried out from within our own borders.  How then will the bill of rights be preserved?

A wise man may say today:
I will sacrifice what liberty neccessary in the war today, so that freedom survives for all of us tomorrow.

Rather than a truly stupid moron perhaps saying:
We will all die for civil liberties today, tomorrow will not matter but at least we will have felt good.

sandman,
Come back with something worthwhile to say this time.  Like perhaps a valid point of view, if you have one.

What good is a Nation if civil liberties are destroyed? Your logic is laughable Little Mouse. "I will sacrifice our freedom so freedom survives". Are you serious?
Civil liberties are too often taken for granted. What are you willing to sacrifice for the good of your security? What about your ability to travel? Your private phone conversations? Your ability to discuss subjects on this board? Who should make the determination where the line should be drawn and we say ... "Nope, thats a freedom I want to keep". Do you want John Ashcroft deciding which freedom you maintain? I sure as hell don't!

[weazel]

Originally posted by MuadDib of Dune
If Americans are so frightened, or our nations spirit has fallen so low that we find curtailment of our civil liberties acceptable, then we have already lost the war....and deserve whatever fate waits for us.
====
I dont buy into this low quality rational at all.....Pure Self defeatism.  It provides aid and comfort to the enemy as far as Im concerned.  Bad mojo.......


I find that the FBI and other intelligence agencies must be able to discover and defeat terrorists within the borders of the United States.  I support whatever action is neccessary to defend the United States.  The ACLU would seem to prefer to allow the terrorists to be protected and in fact hidden from discovery as a matter of civil liberties.  Screw that.  What good are civil liberties if the nation is effectively destroyed?  Martial law will likely occur as a result of a large strike against this country carried out from within our own borders.  How then will the bill of rights be preserved?

A wise man may say today:
I will sacrifice what liberty neccessary in the war today, so that freedom survives for all of us tomorrow.

Rather than a truly stupid moron perhaps saying:
We will all die for civil liberties today, tomorrow will not matter but at least we will have felt good.

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IMO the men who created our government would strongly disagree with you if they were alive today.

Chances are they would be plotting a revolution to replace a government that has lost touch with its citizens and strayed from the path they set us on 225 years ago.

Consider the long term implications of the changes being made, since Chimpy became president Constitutional guarantees and laws passed to protect the US from presidential abuse of power have been under steady assault.

If you consider the age of the quotes below its amazing how relevant they are, our country was truly blessed by the vision of these men.

One of these days America will wake up, hopefully before its too late.
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"Liberty cannot be preserved without a general knowledge among the people, who have a right, from the frame of their nature, to knowledge, as their great Creator, who does nothing in vain, has given them understandings, and a desire to know; but besides this, they have a right, an indisputable, unalienable, indefeasible, divine right to that most dreaded and envied kind of knowledge; I mean, of the characters and conduct of their rulers.

But a Constitution of Government once changed from Freedom, can never be restored. Liberty once lost is lost forever.

If men through fear, fraud or mistake, should in terms renounce and give up any essential natural right, the eternal law of reason and the great end of society, would absolutely vacate such renunciation; the right to freedom being the gift of God Almighty, it is not in the power of Man to alienate this gift, and voluntarily become a slave.

Human nature itself is evermore an advocate for liberty. There is also in human nature a resentment of injury, and indignation against wrong. A love of truth and a veneration of virtue. These amiable passions, are the "latent spark" ... If the people are capable of understanding, seeing and feeling the differences between true and false, right and wrong, virtue and vice, to what better principle can the friends of mankind apply than to the sense of this difference.


A constitution founded on these principles introduces knowledge among the people, and inspires them with a conscious dignity becoming freemen; a general emulation takes place, which causes good humor, sociability, good manners, and good morals to be general. That elevation of sentiment inspired by such a government, makes the common people brave and enterprising. That ambition which is inspired by it makes them sober, industrious, and frugal.

Fear is the foundation of most governments; but it is so sordid and brutal a passion, and renders men in whose breasts it predominates so stupid and miserable, that Americans will not be likely to approve of any political institution which is founded on it"

John Adams
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"We have heard of the impious doctrine in the old world, that the people were made for kings, not kings for the people. Is the same doctrine to be revived in the new, in another shape -- that the solid happiness of the people is to be sacrificed to the views of political institutions of a different form? It is too early for politicians to presume on our forgetting that the public good, the real welfare of the great body of the people, is the supreme object to be pursued; and that no form of government whatever has any other value than as it may be fitted for the attainment of this object.

The accumulation of all powers, legislative, executive, and judiciary, in the same hands, whether of one, a few, or many, and whether hereditary, self-appointed, or elective, may justly be pronounced the very definition of tyranny.

Wherever the real power in a Government lies, there is the danger of oppression.

All men having power ought to be distrusted to a certain degree"

James Madison
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"The ordaining of laws in favor of one part of the nation, to the prejudice and oppression of another, is certainly the most erroneous and mistaken policy. An equal dispensation of protection, rights, privileges, and advantages, is what every part is entitled to, and ought to enjoy.

They that can give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety.

It is very imprudent to deprive America of any of her privileges. If her commerce and friendship are of any importance to you, they are to be had on no other terms than leaving her in the full enjoyment of her rights.

Where liberty dwells, there is my country."

Benjamin Franklin
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"Those who expect to reap the blessings of freedom, must, like men, undergo the fatigues of supporting it"

Thomas Paine

[Rude]

Some of you, their gonna get ya crowd, should calm down.

Must be nice to spout off criticizing the US Govt., taking what steps they feel will allow them the best opportunity to prevent deaths of innocent American citizens.

I do not see you defenders of civil liberty offering what you might do to protect Ameican interests. Very typical.

These changes will effect 99.9% of the general public in no way as to violate their civil liberties....fear mongering is what you've offered up.

Tell me now and in specifics, which of you have launched night ops or walked thru jungles being eaten by insects, laid in a rice patty for days pinned down by sniper fire.....have you cut a mans throat in the darkness of night?

You just sit here spewing crap like you know what your talking about....talks cheap.

Whatever changes in law are made to enable us to curtail dangerous activity can just as easily be changed again....after December 7th, 1941, life was not the same in our nation and neither were our civil rights. It was not the end of freedom or our democracy.