FBI granted more power

[easymo]

"There is a cost for our freedom, nothing is free"

  The price of freedom is constant vigilance.  I am hardly a lib. But IMHO, the business of our armed forces, and CIA, is to be vigilant about forien enemies.  It is the business of the rest of us to be vigilant about the quest for, and abuse of, power.  Buy our own politicians.

  The founders made it fairly clear, that there was to be no federal police force. Then the country was beset by outlaws. There was such an outcry about this.  And a perceived threat so great.  That it allowed a transvestite to began a federal police force.  It was claimed, at the time, that this force was temporary.  Just to meet the threat.  Today, the FBI is one of the largest tax funded bureaucracies.  Its power has already been abused by Nixon, and other politicians.

  In the end, we have to watch those bastards every second.  They will use any excuse to grab more power at our expense.

[AKSWulfe]

Originally posted by Rude
Must be nice to spout off criticizing the US Govt., taking what steps they feel will allow them the best opportunity to prevent deaths of innocent American citizens.

Must be nice blindly following the Government's lead.

If no one questions the Government, then who's to stop them if they take away all our rights?

Think about it.
-SW

[midnight Target]

Tell me now and in specifics, which of you have launched night ops or walked thru jungles being eaten by insects, laid in a rice patty for days pinned down by sniper fire.....have you cut a mans throat in the darkness of night?

Luckily I haven't had to do any of those things. My father did, along with many other men that I regard as heroes. If you are one of them I salute you also Rude.
Remember, however, what it was you were fighting for.  I cherish the ability to critisize our government, and I thank you and others like you for giving me the freedom to do so.

[Thrawn]

Holy crap, Let it be known through out the world that you can't have an opinion unless you have eaten bugs, sat in a rice field and cut someone's throat....uh Rude, do you have to do all these things at the same time?

Hell I'm not even a US citizen, doesn't stop me from trying to be well informed and having an opinion though.

[Sikboy]

I guess this means that Jesse Ventura is our most qualified leader.

-Sikboy

[Skuzzy]

Originally posted by Sandman_SBM


What's really scary is that some people actually believe this tripe.

So Sandman,..what's your solution?

[Rude]

The point is this....as Americans, we have a responsibility to keep an eye on our leaders and continue to do so....it is at the same time our responsibility to give of ourselves when called to do so.

If our leadership fights with a stick while our enemies fight with guns, the end result is elementary. The rules of engagement must be changed or we all will be posting about how awful it is that 2 million of our citizens have died during the next attack. At that time, the same voices will be blaming the Feds for not protecting them....then you will know fear, not this tripe about lose of rights. Our great nation now affords the criminal more rights than the victims in some cases, brought on by distorted thinking and inept lawmaking.

I have not served as my initial example showed, but relatives and friends have...their opinions of how some of you post have been met with the shake of a head or a mild comment stating how having paid no price, has given you such strong opinions, especially remarks from those who reside on foreign soil, telling Americans how to think and live.

I personally am willing to give the Feds what authority they seek,  to insure that my wife and four kids are safe in my country...and if that means giving the Feds more freedom to track down and catch those who want to bring harm to us, so be it. If you want to imagine that our core civil rights will disappear in the process, than you are more simpleminded than I first believed.

[Sikboy]

When I was at the Defense Language Institute, there was a SEAL in my class. Petty Officer Ebersol. He was a very cool guy. Anyhow, he used to tell sea stories, and he told me that the worst part od BUDS was the constitutional law class.


-Sikboy

[weazel]

"Must be nice to spout off criticizing the US Govt., taking what steps they feel will allow them the best opportunity to prevent deaths of innocent American citizens."

It's the responsibility of every citizen to monitor our leaders and "spout off" when they make serious errors in judgement, its a shame most Americans are so apathetic and too self absorbed to bother.

"I do not see you defenders of civil liberty offering what you might do to protect Ameican interests. Very typical"

The "defenders of civil liberty" your sneering at are performing a critcally important function, without them the US would be a very different place...if it even existed at all.

"These changes will effect 99.9% of the general public in no way as to violate their civil liberties....fear mongering is what you've offered up"

Executive Order 13233 of November 1, 2001 removed presidential oversight by the citizens of the US, it affects 100% of U.S. citizens and effectively removed the ability to hold him or any other president accountable for gross abuse of power or negligence, this law was enacted due to Nixons abuse of presidential power.


Further Implementation of the Presidential Records Act:

By the authority vested in me as President by the Constitution and the laws of the United States of America, and in order to establish policies and procedures implementing section 2204 of title 44 of the United States Code with respect to constitutionally based privileges, including those that apply to Presidential records reflecting military, diplomatic, or national security secrets, Presidential communications, legal advice, legal work, or the deliberative processes of the President and the President's advisors, and to do so in a manner consistent with the Supreme Court's decisions in Nixon v. Administrator of General Services, 433 U.S. 425 (1977)

Look at the big picture Rude, and contemplate James Madisons warning.

"There are more instances of the abridgment of the freedom of the people by gradual and silent encroachments of those in power than by violent and sudden usurpations"

[Thrawn]

Originally posted by Rude

I have not served as my initial example showed, but relatives and friends have...their opinions of how some of you post have been met with the shake of a head or a mild comment stating how having paid no price, has given you such strong opinions, especially remarks from those who reside on foreign soil, telling Americans how to think and live.

I'll try and and clarify my posts in the future so it doesn't seem as though I'm telling you guys how to live.  I'm trying to say how I think you should live.  

I live in a country where there are no guaranteed rights, only privledges.  I think it's pretty neat that you guys have actual rights and freedoms, and I think its pretty strange that you'd want to give them up.

[Rude]

In Closing, my final take on those who tremble



Weazel......


Executive Order 13233 of November 1, 2001 removed presidential oversight by the citizens of the US, it affects 100% of U.S. citizens and effectively removed the ability to hold him or any other president accountable for gross abuse of power or negligence, this law was enacted due to Nixons abuse of presidential power.


The above Executive Order in no way ties the hands of Congress nor the Supreme Court...you know of these folks don't ya? They represent the people of the United States and have the power to control, yes even the President of the United States.

This kind of manipulation is why I don't frequent the O'Club...just one giant exercise in futility and self indulgence.

BTW Weazel, answer my question pls....what would you do to have our government effectively protect us, specifically relating to our intelligence and facts gathering efforts?

[easymo]

Rude.
  I think your friends are jurking your chain. What you describe above, sounds more like Hollywood, then Vietnam.

In my own experience. I was eatin by bugs but thats about it.

 I was on the receiving end of sniper fire.  But it was only for about a half hour. Not days. We are a wealthy nation. We wont hesitate to call in gunships. Or if necessary, an artillery barrage, to take out a sniper.  I never heard of a unit being pinned down for days by sniper fire.  The U.S. Army doesn't do business that way.

 Knives dont play a big role in combat. But if needed there are much better targets that the throat.  The human mandible is a very thick bone.  All someone has to do is drop his chin to protect his throat from a knife.  You might still sever one of the main arteries.  But that wont keep him from raising hell before he bleeds to death.  There are much easier targets on the human body for knife attacks.  If you have ever had "the wind knocked out of you" playing football, or what ever. You know that verbalizing, at that point, is damn near impossible. This effect can be reproduced easily, by puncturing the right organ.

As for as night ops.  The VC were a gorilla force. The cover of darkness was one of their primary weapons.  The only daytime action I ever saw, was the "68 Tet offensive.

 I have eaten bugs.  But that was the result of riding motorcycles, right here in the good "ol U.S.A..

[MuadDib of Dune]

The point Ive tried to make and will continue to do is this:

If the Bill of Rights is being used to effectively cover the movements and intentions of enemies who have lawfully attained US citizenship status (which I believe is totally plausible) then what should be done about it?  What can be done about it?

Would someone offer up a solution to the above because in my mind this is one of the greatest threat potentiols of a very intelligent and cunning enemy.

Yes, I depend on the Bill of Rights to protect my freedoms just as all Amercians do, but if I am to be killed by enemies of the people effectively using the Bill of Rights as a tool towards my, our  destruction, then I am none too happy about it.

What say you?

[Rude]

I give up

Have fun being afraid of something that will not happen, at least due to the current climate.

[weazel]

Executive Order 13233 of November 1, 2001 removed presidential oversight by the citizens of the US, it affects 100% of U.S. citizens and effectively removed the ability to hold him or any other president accountable for gross abuse of power or negligence, this law was enacted due to Nixons abuse of presidential power.

The above Executive Order in no way ties the hands of Congress nor the Supreme Court...you know of these folks don't ya? They represent the people of the United States and have the power to control, yes even the President of the United States

Congress and Supreme Court oversight is also restricted by Section 6 if the party in question finds the request for privilege "burdensome".  

Without privilege there is little possibility of uncovering wrongdoing or abuse of power,  this smacks of exalted status in a country where all men are supposed to equal in the eyes of the law.

I'm sure an attorney with the financial backing chimpy can provide would bring new meaning to the word burdensome.

Sec. 6. Right of Congress and Courts to Obtain Access.

This order does not expand or limit the rights of a court, House of Congress, or authorized committee or subcommittee of Congress to obtain access to the records of a former President pursuant to section 2205(2)(A) or section 2205(2)(C). With respect to such requests, the former President shall review the records in question and, within 21 days of receiving notice from the Archivist, indicate to the Archivist his decision with respect to any privilege. The incumbent President shall indicate his decision with respect to any privilege within 21 days after the former President has indicated his decision. Those periods may be extended by the former President or the incumbent President for requests that are burdensome. The Archivist shall not permit access to the records unless and until the incumbent President advises the Archivist that the former President and the incumbent President agree to authorize access to the records or until so ordered by a final and nonappealable court order.


"This kind of manipulation is why I don't frequent the O'Club...just one giant exercise in futility and self indulgence."

The only thing futile is your attempt to *spin* this as manipulation,EO13233 was just the beginning of the assault on the systems checks and balances.

"BTW Weazel, answer my question pls....what would you do to have our government effectively protect us, specifically relating to our intelligence and facts gathering efforts?

Without the intelligence assets required to accurately assess the threat any plans or suggestions I could make would be an exercise in futility.

I feel reasonably comfortable in saying that the major terrorist threat America faces to date come from foriegn entitys.

None of the 9/11 terrorists were US citizens or originated from a homegrown terrorist group.

With that in mind its clear that the current administrations direction is misguided....or their agenda is not what it should or what they claim it to be.

9/11 was tragic and I agree the US must take measures to stop future events of this nature.

I fail to see reason for degrading civil liberty and its relationship to terrorist designs.