Question for Hohun, Verm, Niklas, Naudet, Butch2k - MW 50 on Fw 190A?

[funkedup]

I thought we had closed this matter a long time ago, but I guess I don't "know my 190s".  Please share with me any information you have regarding MW 50 on the Fw 190A, especially anything from primary sources?  Thanks and

[MANDOBLE]

Just a question about any Fw plane. AFAIK, while most technical data was destroyed by germans, some was captured by soviet troops from the main FW factories (Cottbus?). Is that right? If so, we better look into these documents captured by the soviets. I know there were some technical FW charts in the hads of western allies since, at least, 1943. Spies? Real info? Falsified info? Who knows.

[butch2k]

Yes indeed the Russian captured a lot of document pertaining to the 190 production along with many FW engineers.
As far as i know the 190s captured by the Soviet had MW50 and not the GM1, which is not very surprising. The GM1 was only useful at very high altitude, and the combat in the Eastern front were mostly far below the engine critical altitude so under the altitude minimum altitude required for use of GM1 so MW50 was much more useful.
Moreover GM1 injection had a deleterious effect on piping and other metal part involved, oxygen being a very strong corrodant. Another point in the availability of the GM1 which seems to have been very scarce by mid 44, and it required special handling which made it not very practical.
The GM1 was possibly used by the units engaged against US bombers, but even then availibility and handling makes me doubt it.

[funkedup]

Thanks Butch!  Can you elaborate on that?  
Which variants (A-#) are we talking about?
Did the USSR actually capture information describing the system, or just aircraft?
Did they find methanol barrels at 190A bases?
What about the supplemental petrol injection system?  Is it possible that they confused the plumbing for this system with MW 50 plumbing?
Did they find documentation of engine power curves using MW 50?
Did they test the engines on a dynamometer with MW 50?
Did they find flight test data for Fw 190A using MW 50?
Did they flight test them with MW 50?

I wonder, if the MW 50 system on Fw 190A existed, why is there a total absence of information about it in USAAF and RAF archives?  They captured and tested and dissected many Fw 190A, but not one word about water injection.

[MANDOBLE]

Originally posted by butch2k
As far as i know the 190s captured by the Soviet had MW50

Are you able to prove it?

In any case there are two very different scenaries:

1 - Western Europe, where 190s were fighting hi alt bomber formations, and where MW50 had little or no effect at all and perhaps some extra fuel was desirable to increase the CAP time a bit.

2 - Eastern front with lo level fights, where MW50 had had a noticeable effect.


That may explain why our western "version/vision" of 190 is not the same as the eastern one.

[butch2k]

Yes it appears in Soviet tests, i'm not sure i'll be able to share the data due to my NDA.
I will have to verify the piping and the way the GM-1/MW-50/Fuel system works on the 190 but it's probably working the same way as the K-4 one. There should be a way to select before startup whether the tank you have is using MW50 or fuel.

[funkedup]

Very cool Butch.  I understand about NDAs.  
I hope some day you can share the whole document, or at least the performance curves.
Maybe you can give one bit of info.  What was the maximum permitted manifold pressure while using MW 50?

[RRAM]

I remember some emails I crossed with Oleg, back when Il-2 was still in beta


from what I read on his emails, he had definite proof of the usage of MW50 in the Fw190A8s in the eastern front.


Hehehe maybe we can tell Pyro to put MW50 in the A8?

[Vermillion]

Funked, I'd have to go back and check my library at home to be absolutely sure (I'm sitting in a Kinko's in Philadelphia) but all my sources say A8 used the GM1, but nothing on MW50.

Now I've seen stuff to say that the BMW engine "could" use MW50, but no where have I seen actual info on production aircraft using it.

I'd like to see any good hard data on 190A's that used it.

[senna]

All 190s starting from the A4 on towards the A8 used the bmw 801-D2 (supercharged, 1730 hp with MW50 2100 hp) except for a few exceptions. The 801-D2 was the first variant of the 801 with provisions for water methanol injection (MW50) although MW50 was not readily available until the A8 appeared. Only A8s or at least in time frame 190's with 801-D2s still flying after the release date of the A8 ever carried MW50 into combat. Im sure there was a little bit of MW50 stashed somewhere prior to the A8.

The exceptions within the 801-D2 equiped 190s were the fw-190A6R4 which was equiped with an 801TS (turbocharged,  2000 hp with MW50 (estimated) 2428 hp ) engine. Its claimed max speed was 424mph at 34,000 ft.

The A9 used the 801F (supercharged,  1765  hp wth MW50 2400 hp) engine. The A9R11 used the 801TS turbocharged engine. According to some sources, the 801Fs were not available so the 801TS was installed instead. Most if not all A9 models were then actually the  A9R11 variant.

No comment at this point on GM-1.

[MANDOBLE]

Excelent Senna, can you post your information sources?

[senna]

Warplanes of the Lufftwaffe
Editor: David Donald
Aerospace Publishing London, AIRtime Publishing USA

Page [72-75], 84

and this link:

http://www.arrakis-ttm.com/fw190.html

[MiloMorai]

"The 801-D2 was the first variant of the 801 with provisions for water methanol injection (MW50) although MW50 was not readily available until the A8 appeared."

MW50 is distilled water and methyl alcohol (wood alcohol) - not hard to come by. The BMW801 did not like MW50 and it took until the A-8 for BMW engineers to solve the problem. The DB engines did not suffer like the BMW801 from the use of MW50. MW equipment was readily available for DB engined a/c (I believe).

[Naudet]

I am not an expert for the A-Series, more for the D-Series, but that's what i so far know:

With the A4 they introduced MW-50 injection with the BMW801.
This was keeped till the latest A-Series planes.
But additional boost methods were introduced like GM-1.

As MW50 is a low-alt boost system and GM-1 is a high alt-system, it might have given both variants in service.
On the western front were the B17+B24 flew at 7000 meters+ the GM-1 should have been logicaly used, too boost the FW190As speed above critical alt.
While on the eastern front most fight took place below 6000 meters and so MW50 as a low-alt boost would make sense.

[Vermillion]

Guys, unless you have primary source data, I wouldn't trust it much. MW50 on A4's, and to a certain extent A8's, is most likely the same kind of myth as MG151/15s on 109K4's.

The primary source (original documents and drawings) doesn't support that it actually was there.  At least in the information I have seen.

The compendium books are good general references, but contain many errors, and are not usually definitive answers.