AcesHigh FM questions...

[John F Kennedy]

I spotted this on AGW and my intention is seriously not to kick off a wet towel snapping contest on AH vs WB vs WWIIO.  My question is honest and all I'm asking is iif AH's fm lacks what this guys thinks it does. He feels ONLY WWIIO models what he wrote about. Or is he a MAC player who is only talking about fm's of what he can test for himself on his MAC?

 "In 'other sims', you have to pull more than 1 G in order to spin, but in WW2OL it seems to be AoA dependent (both positive and negative) and you get the same reaction by exceeding the envelope as you would in a real plane, which you *don't* in 'other sims'.
The same goes with the various gyroscopic reactions to throttle and control inputs, again something which doesnt happen in 'other sims'.
In short, WW2OL airplanes *behave* like real airplanes. Their performance numbers might be off, but when you move the controls around, they influence your maneuvers the way I would expect in a real, albeit lighter plane.  (Daff)"

(from http://agw.warbirdsiii.com/bbs/showthread.php?threadid=7112&pagenumber=2 )

 Thank you in advance for any objective replies...

[Ripsnort]

Er, someone took Daff seriously?

[straffo]

try it and form your own opinion


something look wrong in my sentence but I can't figure what  
wass a bbit gennerous when typping

[Kratzer]

As soon as a Ju87 can't outmanuever a Hurricane in that game, I'll try it again and let you know.

[AKSWulfe]

one too many Ps in opinion straffo.... if that's what you mean?
-SW

[straffo]

that's it

[Pyro]

If you're above the 1G stall speed, how do you achieve max aoa at only 1 G?  If accelerated stalls occured at 1G, your plane would spin out in level flight.  The original poster is either confused about how stalls work in real life or how they work in the games.

[KG45]

re: WWIIOL FM

a 109 couldn't shake me off his 6 in a turn fight, and i was driving a blen full of bombs. and was pinging his bellybutton untill, of course, the fight got low, the object count got a little high, my screen froze, and i became a lawn dart.

how realistic.

POS flight models, POS game.

[Daff]

So, Pyro, what happens when you close the throttle and try to maintain level flight?...and when you reach stall and press the rudder to either side?.

Daff

[CptTrips]

Well, I've been trying it offline.

I level out and cut engine.

I watch my vsi and gradually add back pressure to attempt to maintain 0fpm drop.  I watch the accelerameter to make sure I'm not exceeding 1g at any time.

Eventually the stall horn start softly then eventually I am not able to maintain 0fpm vsi.  

At this critical point one wing will drop.  I then roll over and either enter a spiral dive or sometimes a fully developed stall/spin.

If I accuate the rudders at the critical point, consistently it is the receeding wingtip that will stall first.

At no point did I exceed 1g except once I was in the dive.  At least to the limits that my flying skill would allow.  

What behavior were you expecting?

Regards,
Wab

[dtango]

Daff:

>>>So, Pyro, what happens when you close the throttle and try to maintain level flight?...and when you reach stall and press the rudder to either side?.

You stall in AH as you would expect.

Regarding other gyroscopic effects, I guess you haven't noticed the effect of torque whenever you take off or how planes will roll better one direction over another?

Not meant to be a flame- Not sure where you're getting your info from Daff but I recommend that you actually try flight testing aircraft in AH to be more informed before you make statements like the above.

Tango, XO
412th FS Braunco Mustangs

[Daff]

Wab, I can only get it to enter a spiral dive, which is exactly what also happens in WB, unless you pull more than 1 G. It's been awhile since I've 'tested it', but I will be happy to do so again over the weekend.
 Dtango, try open and closing the throttle, while flying level. Sure, it will roll a little bit, but the ball will hardly move and there's no yaw.
I have to use the rudder more in a underpowered tricycle gear Beagle Pup 100 than I do in either AH or WB, where 2000HP+ monsters are modelled.

Daff

[ccvi]

Originally posted by dtango
I guess you haven't noticed the effect of torque whenever you take off [/B]

It isn't torque, it's prop wash

Daff, you're trying to compare apples and oranges. The main difference isn't HP.

AH's aircraft are at least about 6 times as heavy as a Beagle Pup 100. So you need a lot stronger forces to make it move. Also airspeed is higher, keeping the aircraft straight, so less yaw when changing throttle.

Beagle Pup 100 has got a fixed pitch prop, AH's aircraft use constant RPM props. therefor there isn't much torque effect/roll when changing throttle.

[Taiaha]

Originally posted by Kratzer
As soon as a Ju87 can't outmanuever a Hurricane in that game, I'll try it again and let you know.

Hehe.  In a Hurricane in that game I once followed a JU87 through 4 consecutive loops.  I knew then that all I had read about Stukas being sitting ducks during the Battle of Britain was a load of BS.  But I didn't cancel my subscription until from the ground I witnessed a Blenheim saddle up on the 6 of a 110 and shoot him down.

Beautifully rendered those planes unarguably are (the new Heinkel 111 is a beauty in the screen shots I've seen).  But I don't understand how it's possible to divorce some abstract quantity like "feel" from the fact that the planes don't perform in a remotely realistic fashion.  Surely if they felt right, and correctly modelled "gyroscopic" effects, that would in some sense be reflected in even passably realistic flight performance?

BTW, I hear they've actually addressed some of these performance problems in the latest release (some planes now bleed more energy (not hard since they used to bleed none at all) and their top speeds have been adjusted)--anyone got any firsthand experience of these chances?

Loved the ground war in WWIIO, but I'll snap the wet towel at their flight models any day.

[dtango]

ccvi:  Actually 4 factors play a part to the left turning tendency on take off (right turning for counter-clockwise turning props from the perspective of the cockpit): Torque, P Factor, Slipstream (prop wash), and Gyroscopic Effect.  You are right- prop wash plays a significant factor.  My mistake in not correctly pointing that out though I don't know how much the other 3 contribute to the distribution to cause the yaw to the left.  I was responding to Daff's statement of AH not modelling "various gyroscopic reactions".

Daff:  
Firstly- You probably have combat trim enabled for your throttle open/close open/close tests.  When you auto-level in AH it enables combat trim automatically and trims elevators, rudder, and ailerons to maintain straight and level flight.  If you are in auto-level / combat trim mode then you will notice the following things:
[list=1]

• At level flight rudder and aileron are trimmed to keep the plane level.
• If you are closing and opening throttle you will note aileron trim being and maybe even rudder trim self-adjusting to compensate for the torque, P Factor, Slipstream.

If you don't have combat trim on and have rudder and aileron trim centered you will notice that closing and opening throttle to add slight yaw and roll to your aircraft due to torque, slipstream, and p factor.

2ndly-  Regarding aircraft entering spins from stalls- that's a bit too complex and beyond me so I so won't attempt to comment on spins, but you certainly stall at 1G in AH as expected when you transition below 1G level flight stall speed.


Tango, XO
412th FS Braunco Mustangs