Author Topic: 'Dragging 101' and 'Dragging 101A'. (Read 442 times)

wulfie · « **on:** June 12, 2002, 12:28:42 PM »

This is not a whine.

Many who read this post may already know what I am talking about. If so, no need to tell the world that you already know - keep the reply #s down please so informative replies are not lost in 'clutter' and cannot be seen by the (new, newer) people who could learn something by reading this thread.

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So you are on the deck (~100' altitude), kind of slow (~250 MPH), being forced to use evasive maneuvers vs. an enemy who is 500-650 away from you and firing in short, well aimed bursts. Behind that enemy are 3 other enemy aircraft who are flying straight and level and heading for you at max. power. (For realisms/simplicitys sake) We'll say that we are in the MA and you and all 4 bad guys are flying Spitfire IXs. 8)

4000' above you, diving towards you at high speed from your high '3', is a friendly Fw 190D-9. There are numerous other bad guys around also, all at about 6000' altitude and within visual range your side is outnumbered roughly 2:1.

The Fw 190 gives you an 'auto check 6 call' (duh), then you get a message on 'channel 3'. "xxxxxx im otw drag" (with 'xxxxxx' = your handle).

When that Fw 190D-9 gets to about 2.0 from you, at your not so high '3' anymore, turn to your '9' and enter a shallow dive. If you use evasives make them very very slight. Your heading should not change more than 5 degrees at a time. No excessive roll.

Remember this: any evasive maneuver you make is going to be mirrored by the bad guy 600 behind you. If you can keep your speed up and your course roughly the same, the closest bad guy is going to get shot down and you will be at around 300 MPH (so the next 3 bad guys coming will have a reduced rate of closure) when that nearest bad guy explodes.

If that bad guy doesn't explode, it's because he made a 'break turn' to avoid being shot, and you now have some good separation.

Better yet, if that Fw 190D-9 (or P-51, or La, or F4U, or P-47) didn't have to use alot of elevator input on the gun pass and/or the kill, he still has alot of speed. He's probably looping, doing a half roll at the top of the loop to look for the biggest threat and/or line up the congo line of 3 closing bad guy Spitfire IXs, so he can drop in behind them as they try to chase you and make them make a decision - continue chasing you and get shot at, or break off the chase and don't get shot at.

The cliff notes version - if someone is coming to help you and they are very fast, don't perform an evasive maneuver (e.g. break turn, split s, etc.) that will force them to maneuver heavily to get set up a gun pass on the enemy who is shooting at/chasing you. Maneuver to put the enemy behind you flying with his bellybutton towards your potential saviour, flying in a straight line with roughly the same heading as your potential savior.

'FYI'.

Mike/wulfie

MANDOBLE · « **Reply #1 on:** June 12, 2002, 12:34:49 PM »

Nothing hardest than trying to help a friend in a spit being pursued by another spit.

Hristo · « **Reply #2 on:** June 12, 2002, 01:13:28 PM »

Good post Wulfie, I can only agree.

I am sick of types who drag even with separation and then break hard just as I get into firing range of enemy pursuing them. They deserve to die being that stupid.

mason22 · « **Reply #3 on:** June 12, 2002, 01:23:49 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by Hristo
Good post Wulfie, I can only agree.

I am sick of types who drag even with separation and then break hard just as I get into firing range of enemy pursuing them. They deserve to die being that stupid.

that reminds me...aminal did that last night when i was trying to smoke the spit that was chasing him....right aminal

CavemanJ · « **Reply #4 on:** June 12, 2002, 01:32:35 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by Hristo
Good post Wulfie, I can only agree.

I am sick of types who drag even with separation and then break hard just as I get into firing range of enemy pursuing them. They deserve to die being that stupid.

When that happens, in a badly outnumbered situation, I let the idiot die and keep my speed up with a gentle pull to zoom.

You want me to save you? Don't make me turn myself into a target to do it, so I can die and you get home.

Udie · « **Reply #5 on:** June 12, 2002, 01:37:52 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by Hristo
Good post Wulfie, I can only agree.

I am sick of types who drag even with separation and then break hard just as I get into firing range of enemy pursuing them. They deserve to die being that stupid.

hehe I "quit" helping those types years ago. I don't give up speed for somebody who break turns 2 seconds before I'm about to shoot. They couldn't wait a couple more seconds to turn so they die.

Or worse yet are the ones that drag to you from say 4 miles away and they fly right to you giving you no lateral seperation. In that situation if there is enough vertical seperation to do a split-s on the bad guy I will otherwise I just fly off looking for another target.

This is why finding a good wingman is crucial to survival in the MA. Get a good wingy and you don't have to talk. Both know what to do and when to do it based upon the situation at hand. I've been in flights of 2-4 planes jumped by 3 or 4 times as many planes only to have all 4 of us RTB after sending 10 bad guys down in flames. Drag -n- Bag baby! You gotta love it!

good post!

Tac · « **Reply #6 on:** June 12, 2002, 01:46:21 PM »

true cave. I only make 1 attempt to clear someone's 6, if they turn hard when im doing it, I dont even try for a snapshot I just pull up to climb again and leave them to their fate.

I have system to give 6 calls.

1X 6-call = con near you may be making a run on you.
2X 6-calls= YOU GOT ONE ON YOUR bellybutton STUPID!
3X 6-calls= DRAG FOR ME IM ON THE WAY.

Of course, they dont know about it, but most of the times I get the desired results. People tend to look around when get one 6 call only, they tend to take an evasive FIRST then look around when 2 6 calls are given in a row...

and the 3 X 6 calls hasnt gotten the desired effect yet.. they seem to panic and do a hard evasive. Hopefully this post will help

Dragin' tip: The best drag is the one that makes your opponent get tunnel vision on you (aka concentrate on YOU only and ignore stuff around him) while you fly in a relatively straight line. This is best achieved by jinking. Con on your 6, d800 away.. closing in... firing. Someone gives you 3X 6calls in a row (

) or tells you over vox they clearing your 6. Instead of doing hard evasives, you start on erratic level flight (jinking).. that is, pull nose down for a second, roll left and let the plane drift left for a second, pull nose up with a little roll to a side , etc, etc. For the guy on your 6, this will make it hard to aim, especially if you do below horizon jinks.. which makes him really concentrate on firing on you and not on the guy coming on HIS 6 to clear YOUR 6. Heck, even doing lazy "short" flat sciscors below and above the horizon works for this.

wulfie · « **Reply #7 on:** June 12, 2002, 01:54:47 PM »

Guys,

While I can certainly sympathize with your frustration...

We need to keep in mind that a decent % of guys who conduct a break turn while you are coming to clear them may not know any better.

Think back to your first year in an online sim. If you took some hits you probably broke as hard into the enemy as you could.

I think alot of guys in the MA just don't know that not breaking is maybe their best shot at staying alive.

I at least try to explain on private after it happens. About 50% of the time the guy had no clue.

Every time you educate someone about this you are investing in future easy kills... 8)

Hristo,

Some times I think the guy is breaking to prempt his pursuer - i.e. he assumes his pursuer is going to have to 'give up the angle' against him to evade and he's setting up a counterattack early. I see this happen alot when it's 1 on 2 (with you and the guy you are clearing being the '2') or if it's 2 on 2 and the enemy's 2d bad guy let himself get too far removed from the action.

Mike/wulfie

lazs2 · « **Reply #8 on:** June 12, 2002, 02:03:45 PM »

On the other hand.... Nothing is more frustrating than being killed after slow scisoring a con for half a sector while 3 friendlies are shooting away at him with no affect. Another is when you drag 6 timid guys out of the ack only to have 6 friendlies stay 3k above and watch the show till you have shot up 3 of the stalwarts and gotten the other 3 nso low on e that your grandmother could kill em..

I only count on squaddies to clear my six... cuts down on the disapointment.
lazs

narsus · « **Reply #9 on:** June 12, 2002, 02:22:21 PM »

Dont worry lazs I will protect you LOL

Hortlund · « **Reply #10 on:** June 12, 2002, 02:46:17 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by Tac
I have system to give 6 calls.

1X 6-call = con near you may be making a run on you.
2X 6-calls= YOU GOT ONE ON YOUR bellybutton STUPID!
3X 6-calls= DRAG FOR ME IM ON THE WAY.

Ahh, this reminds me of good 'ol Joe Crip's system to give 6 calls hehe

mason22 · « **Reply #11 on:** June 12, 2002, 03:24:44 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by wulfie
Guys,

While I can certainly sympathize with your frustration...

We need to keep in mind that a decent % of guys who conduct a break turn while you are coming to clear them may not know any better.

Think back to your first year in an online sim. If you took some hits you probably broke as hard into the enemy as you could.

I think alot of guys in the MA just don't know that not breaking is maybe their best shot at staying alive.

Mike/wulfie

that's why i like your (this post) post wulfie...to help ed-u-macate those that could benefit from learning a proper drag. good job.

Heinkel · « **Reply #12 on:** June 12, 2002, 03:28:29 PM »

Good post Wulfie, 100% agree.

I am d2.0 off a low con chasing a freindly...i dive down...close on the enemy...but wait, the friendly is now doing all these crazy manuvers....yup...friednly just died, then I kill the enemy.

The friendly didn't have to die, and i see this happen sooo much. Just a piece of advise:

If help is on the way, hold still

Hope this helps

popeye · « **Reply #13 on:** June 12, 2002, 03:58:48 PM »

narsus,

shhhhhhhh......

lazs hasn't noticed that HE is always doing the dragging, and his squadies are doing the bagging.

wulfie · « **Reply #14 on:** June 12, 2002, 09:34:44 PM »

lazs has a valid point. But the way to solve his frustration is to educate people how to clear someone who is using a slow rolling scissors to evade gunfire.

So here's the cliff notes answer:

If the guy you are trying to clear is using a slow rolling scissors, do not follow either aircraft (i.e. the guy you are trying to clear, or the enemy chasing him).

You want to be wings level, ready to fire, and begin firing as the enemy begins to roll towards your gunsight (unless you are *very* comfortable with snap shooting, etc.). Keep your wings level and let the enemy 'scissor' thru your stream of fire.

In general, try to fly 1.5-2.0 seconds ahead of an evading enemy. Try to learn to think in terms of 'in 1.5-2.0 seconds he can be in one of 2 places...I will have my guns lined up on the 1 place of 2 that I can most easily line up on'. You want to have to use an absolute minimum of maneuver for the 1 or 2 seconds before you fire on an enemy aircraft, because then you are only having to deal with the timing of your gunfire.

One of the main point of a rolling scissors is that you *usually* have to fly 'ahead' of the scissoring aircraft for a gun solution. If the scissoring aircraft sees you are doing this, he can 'break out of the scissors' before he begins to 'roll back' (towards your gun solution). He 'gains some angle' by doing this, as you are flying straight and not following him for a second or two. It gets him some separation.

If you don't 'fly ahead' for a gun solution vs. the rolling scissor, and instead decide to track/pursue thru the scissors, there is a chance you could be forced to overshoot your target at low speed, assuming your target can make you miss the 2 or 3 shots you are going to get before the overshoot occurs (some guys are really good at this).

In lazs case, if the enemy doesn't scissor with lazs he continues his turn at the far side of the scissor instead of rolling back, and gains some separation. If the enemy goes for the tracking pursuit of the scissor, you come in fast in a straight line and set the enemy up to scissor thru your gun arc. But if you are clearing someone who is in danger of being shot don't spare ammunition. Have a good burst of fire up and out there for the enemy to fly thru.

Eheheh some cliff notes. 8)

Mike/wulfie

p.s. lazs I won't miss when clearing you on the rolling scissors...assuming I manage to get there before drex kills everyone. 8)