Nazis re-educated in England

[midnight Target]

Found this after a quick google search, thought it might shed some light on Bacque's "numbers".

I believe it is worth pointing out that David Irving has publicly stated that James Bacque is a personal friend of his, and that he, David Irving, reviewed Bacque's work on "Other Losses" before it was printed. David Irving, of course, is the highly controversial person who sued an American professor in a British court for saying that he denies the Holocaust. Irving not only lost the case, but the presiding judge gave a devastating and scathing judgment against Irving and pointed that he is indeed a Holocaust-denier

[Hortlund]

Originally posted by midnight Target
Found this after a quick google search, thought it might shed some light on Bacque's "numbers".
 

First, it is really sad, but this is the kind of response you get when you try to talk about allied warcrimes. Be they Dresden casualty figures, the fate of German POWs after the war, or the rape of 2 000 000 German women by Soviet soldiers... standard response, Imply that he is a revisionist[/b]

Is that the answer I'm gonna get? Because I really expected more from you than some Boroda-like moron reaction.

But in order for you not to be confused here, lets take Stephen Ambroses number of 56 000 then. 56 000 German POWs died after the war, as a direct result of the US governments actions.

Comments, thoughts, reflections?

Was I right or wrong when I said that German POWs were killed in US POW-camps or was I just trolling Midnight?

[Hortlund]

Actually, the more I think about it, the more that post of yours pisses me off Midnight. Take a look at what that quote of yours really say.

I believe it is worth pointing out that David Irving has publicly stated that James Bacque is a personal friend of his, and that he, David Irving, reviewed Bacque's work on "Other Losses" before it was printed.

Now exactly what the &#¤# is that supposed to mean? Does it say anything whatsoever about Bacque, his research, his figures, his methods, his findings?

No...

What it says is that David Irvine has claimed to be a friend of Bacque's, and that Irvin claims to have read Bacque's book before it was printed.

Guilt by association...I though you liberals were against that...

[midnight Target]

Are you a belligerent drunk too?

I didn't dispute what you wrote. I did try to shed some light on the huge numbers quoted by one of the people you mentioned. I have no doubt that many German soldiers died after the war ended.

One should be careful who one is calling a moron. Seems to me you just want to pick a fight Stevie.

[Hortlund]

Originally posted by midnight Target
Are you a belligerent drunk too?

I didn't dispute what you wrote. I did try to shed some light on the huge numbers quoted by one of the people you mentioned.  

"Shed some light on it" Was that quote of yours your idea of sheading light on something? What you quoted was someone saying that David Irvine has claimed to be a friend of Bacque's, and that Irvin claims to have read Bacque's book before it was printed.

Is that your idea of "sheading some light on the huge numbers".
Exactly what would that light be? The light of stupidity?

*bites tounge and counts to ten*

And no, Im not a belligerent drunk.

[Hortlund]

Originally posted by midnight Target

Are you a belligerent drunk too?

One should be careful who one is calling a moron. Seems to me you just want to pick a fight Stevie.

Classy...

Perhaps you should re-read this thread and ask yourself who is picking fights with who.

Let me ask you, if you have no intention of questioning my numbers then why the /&¤# did you dive in to this thread head first accusing me of trolling?

[midnight Target]

Jane you ignorant slut!

Let me try one more time here.
I was looking into the huge disparity in the numbers you quoted regarding deaths of POW's.
High 800,000 - Bacque
Low   56,000 - Ambrose

Now Ambrose has been shown to be a plagerist, but not an inaccurate one.
Bacque has made some incredible claims regarding the genocide of Germans after the war. From page 141 of "Crimes and Mercies"

                        TOTALS OF DEATHS
 
                       Minimum     Maximum
 
Expellees (1945-50)   2,100,000   6,000,000
Prisoners (1941-50)   1,500,000   2,000,000
Residents (1946-50)   5,700,000   5,700,000
                      _________  __________
 
Totals                9,300,000  13,700,000
 
Attributed to the all of the Allied forces (including the Russians) but mostly attributed to the Morgenthau Plan. This plan was proposed by Morgenthau (Sec. Treas. under Roosevelt) and set aside by Roosevelt, and later rejected by Truman. Some NAZI apologists claim that it was still secretly imposed upon poor Germany after the war. This is simply not true. (See the Berlin Airlift for directly refuting evidence of the starvation of Germans by the US.) Truman fired Morgenthau from his Cabinet.

The Morgenthau Plan is quoted extensively in many Neo Nazi and Anti Jewish websites I visited today. An entire book on the subject was written by David Irving. I wonder where Bacques sentiments lie?

[Wotan]

see the Hortlund thats all he has "nazi revisionist"

btw The berlin airlift began in 1948

Secretary of State George C. Marshall initially proposed the plan in a 1947 commencement speech at Harvard University.

Marshall failed in China in his attempt to mediate ther Chineese civil war. China was over run by communists.

The economic/and infastructure in Europe was still in bad shape going into 1948. There was great concern that those in desperation would look to the Soviet Union. To demonstrate what my point even countries that werent devasted by ww2 recieved monies from the marshall plan

Marshall Plan Expenditures

Economic Assistance, April 3, 1948 to June 30, 1952
(in millions of dollars)

COUNTRY Total Grants Loans

Iceland 29.3 24.0 5.3
Ireland 147.5 19.3 128.2
Portugal 51.2 15.1 36.1
Sweden 107.3 86.9 20.4
Turkey 225.1 140.1 85.0

As for the Soviets, Marshall concluded that they had decided to stall in the expectation that the spreading social disintegration would work to their benefit. Their attitude reminded Marshall of the 1944 proposal by Secretary of the Treasury Henry Morgenthau to break up and pastoralize Germany, and when he returned to Washington he reread then Secretary of War Henry Stimson’s vehement critique of the plan. It probably also reminded him of the Communist’s attitude during his 1946 mission to China.

Marshall’s second public address as Secretary of State came in an April 28 national radio speech on the Moscow Conference. Marshall still desired to avoid a rupture with the Soviet Union, but his optimism was rapidly waning. Europe, he asserted, needed American help for reconstruction and economic relief, and there must not be further delay on a German settlement. "Disintegrating forces are becoming evident. The patient is sinking while the doctors deliberate." He called for bipartisan unity on the reconstruction of Europe.

There was a real concern that western europe would turn to russia.

As for the MorgenthauPlan, Mr. Morgenthau himself said it was implemented.

In the New York Post for Nov. 24, 1947, he wrote,

The Morgenthau Plan for Germany [...] became part of the Potsdam Agreement, a solemn declaration of policy and undertaking for action... signed by the United States of America, Great Britain and the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics.

Whether you believe or not is pointless, The fact is there was no relief for germany until 1948.

[CH3]

Originally posted by Naso
Very interesting reading CH3.

Be prepared to be burned alive by the rightwingies here

Nah, they'll just do what they always do when faced with the stink of their own hypocrisy; ignore it.  

[midnight Target]

The "light of stupidity" reflects too.

Pointing out the revisionist tendencies of Bacques as a way of questioning his inflated numbers is incredibly valid in this type of forum and I regret your ignorance of that fact. I am not trying to convict a criminal here Your Honor. I do hope that when you read a liberal newspaper or listen to a conservative talk show you take the politics of the information into account.

I have no doubt that many German soldiers & civilians died tragically after the war. I do take exception to placing the blame on the victors.
Lets see now...you pick a fight.....get your bellybutton kicked.....then blame your injuries on the other guy. Makes sense to me.

As to the Morgenthau plan, and its implementation I found this information on the Lexis-Nexis website.

Morgenthau's plan, JCS 1067, and the Yalta agreements generated controversy from the outset. Secretary of War Henry Stimson dismissed deindustrialization as impractical and argued that Germany's resources were essential to the rebuilding of a prosperous Europe. State Department officials opposed a harsh peace because they feared a repeat of the post- World War I experience, when high reparations and war guilt assigned to Germany by the Treaty of Versailles helped spark a second global war. And U.S. occupation forces, only 5 percent of whom had German language skills, protested that they lacked the training to manage the wide array of civil affairs assigned to them. They also grumbled about rules that prohibited fraternization with the civilian population, particularly civilians of the opposite sex.

Nor did President Truman support a vindictive peace. He wholeheartedly supported plans to denazify and demilitarize Germany, as his directive to U.S. occupying forces in May 1945 indicated. But as a World War I veteran he agreed with the State Department about the disastrous impact of the Treaty of Versailles. In addition, reports of Germany's economic paralysis impressed him: transportation and communications in disrepair, banking facilities virtually nonexistent, and food chronically short. The president concluded that Germany had to rebuild so that American taxpayers would not have to feed and clothe its people.

The Truman administration undertook a number of initiatives that altered U.S. policy. At Potsdam in July 1945 (see Volume 2, Planning for the Postwar World: President Truman at the Potsdam Conference, July 17-August 2, 1945), the president persuaded Stalin to treat Germany as a single economic unit, to limit reparations, and to increase the authority of the four-member Allied Control Council to coordinate finance, transportation, and industry. After Potsdam, General Lucius Clay, the U.S. military governor, downplayed JCS 1067, developed plans to reconstruct German steel and coal industries, and increased permitted levels of production. Determined to conserve German resources, in May 1946 he halted all reparations out of the American zone.

Clay's actions unsettled relations with both the French and the Russians, but U.S. policy continued to emphasize rehabilitation. As Soviet-American relations deteriorated, U.S. officials increasingly circumvented the Allied Control Council, downplayed hopes for reunification, and worked instead to promote economic recovery in the non-Communist zones. In December 1946 the British and Americans combined their zones into "Bizonia" and the following year initiated plans to link the area's economy to the rest of Europe through Marshall Plan economic aid. Occupation authorities also softened proposals to dismantle large business organizations, such as I. G. Farben and Krupp, and pursued a more pragmatic policy of regulating unfair business practices and encouraging democratic trade unions.

And Wotan, If you have more luck than I did finding Morganthau's New York Post quote without the snips please let me know. I did find the site you got your info from. Paaleese!

[Hortlund]

Originally posted by CH3


Nah, they'll just do what they always do when faced with the stink of their own hypocrisy; ignore it.  

Actually I think it might have more to do with the fact that no one probably understands what kind of point you are trying to make...

Personally I think it must be either:
"Dont give any aid, weapons, food or money to arabs, because sooner or later they will turn on you anyway", or
"When the USSR were occupying Afghanistan, CIA helped finance the Mujahedin because they used the arabs as a tool against the Russians".

But neither one is really new, shocking or hypocritical, and I suspect that is why you didnt get any answer.

[Hortlund]

Originally posted by midnight Target
The "light of stupidity" reflects too.

Then why do you feel the urge to carry it around like a torch? Is this your way of saying "Sorry if my presence on these boards leads to an abrupt drop in average IQ here...but the light of stupidity reflects too"?

Pointing out the revisionist tendencies of Bacques as a way of questioning his inflated numbers is incredibly valid in this type of forum and I regret your ignorance of that fact. I am not trying to convict a criminal here Your Honor.

Exactly what are to trying to do then Midnight? First you accuse me of trolling when I say that German POWs died in US POW camps as a direct result of US government actions (something also known as a “crime against humanity”, you might have heard about that concept before). When I post sources for my statement, saying that the numbers range from 56 000 up to 800 000, you ignore the 56 000 figure (which is a horrible enough  crime) and immediately try to accuse the historian responsible for the 800 000 figure of being a revisionist. But the real gem here is how you do it. You post a quote from someone you wont name, in that quote we are told that a known revisionist (Irving) claims to be friends with the historian (Bacque) and he claims to have read Bacques book before it came out in print. Now exactly how pathetic is that Midnight? Yet you return in this post pointing out his revisionist tendencies. Are you insane? The only thing you have done is posed a quote from an unknown origin where someone claims that Irvin has said that he is friends with Bacques. NOTHING ELSE. Is that “revisionist tendencies” to you? Because to the rest of the world it would be called “roadkill”. The only thing being pointed out here is your own *bites tounge*

The rest of your quote about what is valid in “this type of forum” etc speaks volumes about your personality and credibility I suppose.
 

I have no doubt that many German soldiers & civilians died tragically after the war. I do take exception to placing the blame on the victors.
Lets see now...you pick a fight.....get your bellybutton kicked.....then blame your injuries on the other guy. Makes sense to me.

I have no doubt that it makes sense to you. Most others seem to argue along the lines that when someone commits a crime against humanity (and try to remember exactly what the nature of such crimes are), they should be punished for it, regardless of the color of their uniform.

[midnight Target]

Accuse you of "trolling"? Why yes, I did. If you were not "trolling" I apologize for what you perceive to be an affront to your character. I saw it as nothing more than a good natured jibe. One can troll with facts also, so I don't know why my bobber so offended you.

As to the personal attacks you have made, I only feel the deepest sympathy for the Swedish judicial system. I have done much more than point out a tenuous relationship between Bacques and Irving. I have shown that Bacques uses the REVISIONIST mantra of the Morgenthau Plan in his writings. I have also shown how this plan was rejected by Truman, The State Department, and the Military Governor of Germany after the war.
Maybe you should try reading instead of biting your little forked tongue!
Maybe the deaths of millions of Germans if they occured, are due in greater part to the devastation of the land, economy and infrastructure of the country than to the policies of the United States.
Maybe if you were to attach some importance to finding a non-biased source for your tripe it might make more sense to people.

[SageFIN]

As much as I have grown to dislike Hortlund, I have to admit that he sort of has a point here.

[CH3]

"Hortlund" : Actually I think it might have more to do with the fact that no one probably understands what kind of point you are trying to make...


The point being that it somewhat perverse and hypocritical to talk about "re-educating" islamists when you were the significant cause of their extremism. Sorry it was lost on you the 1st time.