Author Topic: Nazis re-educated in England  (Read 745 times)

Offline ~Caligula~

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Nazis re-educated in England
« on: June 12, 2002, 06:40:51 PM »
I saw a show on History International about german POWs in England during and after WWII.
They were used to work on farms and rebuilt the few million homes that were destroyed by the LW.While they worked they were tought new values,and shown what western democracy is really about.Off course they weren`t happy to be away in uncertenty from their homes and families,but they all talked about how greatful they were to be treated fairly and how eye-opening it was for them to see something totally different from the way of life they were brought up in.They went home free from the nazi ideology that poisoned their minds up to that time.

It made me think if doing the same would be possible to the arabs? I know many think here I`m some kind of nazi,but my dislike for arabs doesn`t originate from their genetics or how they look.I belive the arabs could be just as good people as any other civilised nation on earth,if their heads wouldn`t be filled the fundamentalist BS their leaders brainwash them with,so they can maintain their strong grip on their people.
Some say forcing our culture on others is bad,and why is our culture better than theirs?
Well first off western democracy isn`t perfect by any means,but it`s definatelly the best system out there.
In WWII Germany and Japan (and some other nations) had to be beat hard,to rid them from the part of their culture that made them wanna go out and slay people,who just wanted to live  their ordinary lives.Is their culture totally lost or altered?I don`t think so.It seems to me they are happier than ever.

So why all this can`t be done to the arabs?
Yes they have to be beaten in war first,to make them reallize they can`t win,but as sad as it sounds,that`s just how it works.
It`s something that`s gonna happen sooner or later,the only question is at what price?
If we let them get away with  possessing nukes,ballistic missles and so on,they will hurt us awfully.
If the NATO acted now,it would be lot easier,and millions of lives could be saved on both sides.

Offline Hortlund

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Re: Nazis re-educated in England
« Reply #1 on: June 12, 2002, 06:53:23 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by ~Caligula~
I saw a show on History International about german POWs in England during and after WWII.
They were used to work on farms and rebuilt the few million homes that were destroyed by the LW.While they worked they were tought new values,and shown what western democracy is really about.Off course they weren`t happy to be away in uncertenty from their homes and families,but they all talked about how greatful they were to be treated fairly and how eye-opening it was for them to see something totally different from the way of life they were brought up in.They went home free from the nazi ideology that poisoned their minds up to that time.


Dude, I dont know exactly what kind of mental image you have of Germany and Germans pre 1945. But lets just say that they knew about the concept of democracy (since the NSDAP came to govern Germany through winning elections, then passing laws making Hitler supreme ruler of Germany). And they were no doubt grateful that they were in England as POW's instead of sitting in some French or US camp starving to death, or even worse, sitting in some Russian he**hole.

Offline Staga

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Nazis re-educated in England
« Reply #2 on: June 12, 2002, 07:33:08 PM »
"Yes they have to be beaten in war first,to make them reallize they can`t win,but as sad as it sounds,that`s just how it works."

Yep and maybe peace could be made in Versailles :)

Offline Nashwan

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« Reply #3 on: June 12, 2002, 07:54:03 PM »
Quote
In WWII Germany and Japan (and some other nations) had to be beat hard,to rid them from the part of their culture that made them wanna go out and slay people,who just wanted to live their ordinary lives.Is their culture totally lost or altered?I don`t think so.It seems to me they are happier than ever.

So why all this can`t be done to the arabs?
Yes they have to be beaten in war first,to make them reallize they can`t win,but as sad as it sounds,that`s just how it works.

They were beaten in 1967. And occupied. Then they spent 25 years under military occupation. Then the PLO were brought in to keep order.

When exactly is the rehabilitation going to begin?

Offline AKSWulfe

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Nazis re-educated in England
« Reply #4 on: June 12, 2002, 08:15:23 PM »
Nazi Germany was under Nazi reign for only... 1935?-1945.... Mid-east countries have basically been the same way for hundreds of years.

I doubt simply beating them will make them realize the "error of their ways".

The extremists will have to be exterminated for them to realise that we won't tollerate their toejam.
-SW
EDIT: forgot quotes
« Last Edit: June 12, 2002, 08:31:31 PM by AKSWulfe »

Offline ~Caligula~

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« Reply #5 on: June 13, 2002, 12:59:54 AM »
Quote
Dude, I dont know exactly what kind of mental image you have of Germany and Germans pre 1945. But lets just say that they knew about the concept of democracy (since the NSDAP came to govern Germany through winning elections, then passing laws making Hitler supreme ruler of Germany). And they were no doubt grateful that they were in England as POW's instead of sitting in some French or US camp starving to death, or even worse, sitting in some Russian he**hole.


Many of these germans grew up under nazi rule.They didn`t know any better than to be a nazi.The 10 years olds of 1933 were 22 years old men by 1945.That was all they ever saw,no forieghners,foreighn movies,no education other than the nazi one.
Their parents affraid of being reported to the Gestapo would most likely not try to convince them about the nazi regime being wrong,even if they felt that way.That`s just how dictatorships work,and Hitler`s Germany was problably the most harsh of them all,due to german efficiency.

Quote
They were beaten in 1967. And occupied. Then they spent 25 years under military occupation. Then the PLO were brought in to keep order.


Who was beaten?
The IDF could have marched in to Cairo,Damascus,Amman.But they didn`t.Other than their armies and some territories of wich the most was given back,they were left intact.Their leaders remained the same,they`re still toght to hate the west,they`re still backing international terrorism.

BTW what kind of order do You see the PLO keep?

Quote
Nazi Germany was under Nazi reign for only... 1935?-1945.... Mid-east countries have basically been the same way for hundreds of years.

I doubt simply beating them will make them realize the "error of their ways".

The extremists will have to be exterminated for them to realise that we won't tollerate their toejam.
-SW
 


So who are You consider the extremists?
Only the ones that blow themselves up in restaurants or those who dance on the streets after as well?
It`s not going to be easy,but we will have to find a way,because it IS the biggest problem of our time.

Offline Staga

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« Reply #6 on: June 13, 2002, 05:11:13 AM »
Are you also going to "exterminate" those ultra right-wing israeli politicians too or do you think that crise is made only by palestinian terrorists?

Offline CH3

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« Reply #7 on: June 13, 2002, 06:32:02 AM »
Heheh, since you're talking about education Caligula, maybe you should take a look at this article:

Washington Post, 23rd March 2002, by Joe Stephens and David B Ottoway

In the twilight of the Cold War, the United States spent millions of dollars to supply Afghan schoolchildren with textbooks filled with violent images and militant Islamic teachings, part of covert attempts to spur resistance to the Soviet occupation.

The primers, which were filled with talk of jihad and featured drawings of guns, bullets, soldiers and mines, have served since then as the Afghan school system's core curriculum. Even the Taliban used the American-produced books, though the radical movement scratched out human faces in keeping with its strict fundamentalist code.

As Afghan schools reopen today, the United States is back in the business of providing schoolbooks. But now it is wrestling with the unintended consequences of its successful strategy of stirring Islamic fervor to fight communism. What seemed like a good idea in the context of the Cold War is being criticized by humanitarian workers as a crude tool that steeped a generation in violence.

Last month, a U.S. foreign aid official said, workers launched a "scrubbing" operation in neighboring Pakistan to purge from the books all references to rifles and killing. Many of the 4 million texts being trucked into Afghanistan, and millions more on the way, still feature Koranic verses and teach Muslim tenets.

The White House defends the religious content, saying that Islamic principles permeate Afghan culture and that the books "are fully in compliance with U.S. law and policy." Legal experts, however, question whether the books violate a constitutional ban on using tax dollars to promote religion.

Organizations accepting funding from the U.S. Agency for International Development must certify that tax dollars will not be used to advance religion. The certification states that AID "will finance only programs that have a secular purpose. . . . AID-financed activities cannot result in religious indoctrination of the ultimate beneficiaries."

The issue of textbook content reflects growing concern among U.S. policymakers about school teachings in some Muslim countries in which Islamic militancy and anti-Americanism are on the rise. A number of government agencies are discussing what can be done to counter these trends.

President Bush and first lady Laura Bush have repeatedly spotlighted the Afghan textbooks in recent weeks. Last Saturday, Bush announced during his weekly radio address that the 10 million U.S.-supplied books being trucked to Afghan schools would teach "respect for human dignity, instead of indoctrinating students with fanaticism and bigotry."

The first lady stood alongside Afghan interim leader Hamid Karzai on Jan. 29 to announce that AID would give the University of Nebraska at Omaha $6.5 million to provide textbooks and teacher training kits.

AID officials said in interviews that they left the Islamic materials intact because they feared Afghan educators would reject books lacking a strong dose of Muslim thought. The agency removed its logo and any mention of the U.S. government from the religious texts, AID spokeswoman Kathryn Stratos said.

"It's not AID's policy to support religious instruction," Stratos said. "But we went ahead with this project because the primary purpose . . . is to educate children, which is predominantly a secular activity."

Some legal experts disagreed. A 1991 federal appeals court ruling against AID's former director established that taxpayers' funds may not pay for religious instruction overseas, said Herman Schwartz, a constitutional law expert at American University, who litigated the case for the American Civil Liberties Union.

Ayesha Khan, legal director of the nonprofit Americans United for Separation of Church and State, said the White House has "not a legal leg to stand on" in distributing the books.

"Taxpayer dollars cannot be used to supply materials that are religious," she said.

Published in the dominant Afghan languages of Dari and Pashtu, the textbooks were developed in the early 1980s under an AID grant to the University of Nebraska-Omaha and its Center for Afghanistan Studies. The agency spent $51 million on the university's education programs in Afghanistan from 1984 to 1994.

During that time of Soviet occupation, regional military leaders in Afghanistan helped the U.S. smuggle books into the country. They demanded that the primers contain anti-Soviet passages. Children were taught to count with illustrations showing tanks, missiles and land mines, agency officials said. They acknowledged that at the time it also suited U.S. interests to stoke hatred of foreign invaders.

"I think we were perfectly happy to see these books trashing the Soviet Union," said Chris Brown, head of book revision for AID's Central Asia Task Force.

AID dropped funding of Afghan programs in 1994. But the textbooks continued to circulate in various versions, even after the Taliban seized power in 1996.

Officials said private humanitarian groups paid for continued reprintings during the Taliban years. Today, the books remain widely available in schools and shops, to the chagrin of international aid workers.

"The pictures [in] the texts are horrendous to school students, but the texts are even much worse," said Ahmad Fahim Hakim, an Afghan educator who is a program coordinator for Cooperation for Peace and Unity, a Pakistan-based nonprofit.

An aid worker in the region reviewed an unrevised 100-page book and counted 43 pages containing violent images or passages.

The military content was included to "stimulate resistance against invasion," explained Yaquib Roshan of Nebraska's Afghanistan center. "Even in January, the books were absolutely the same . . . pictures of bullets and Kalashnikovs and you name it."

During the Taliban era, censors purged human images from the books. One page from the texts of that period shows a resistance fighter with a bandolier and a Kalashnikov slung from his shoulder. The soldier's head is missing.

Above the soldier is a verse from the Koran. Below is a Pashtu tribute to the mujaheddin, who are described as obedient to Allah. Such men will sacrifice their wealth and life itself to impose Islamic law on the government, the text says.

"We were quite shocked," said Doug Pritchard, who reviewed the primers in December while visiting Pakistan on behalf of a Canada-based Christian nonprofit group. "The constant image of Afghans being natural warriors is wrong. Warriors are created. If you want a different kind of society, you have to create it."

Offline Naso

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« Reply #8 on: June 13, 2002, 11:03:12 AM »
Very interesting reading CH3.

Be prepared to be burned alive by the rightwingies here ;)

:P

Offline midnight Target

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Re: Re: Nazis re-educated in England
« Reply #9 on: June 13, 2002, 02:55:46 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Hortlund

 And they were no doubt grateful that they were in England as POW's instead of sitting in some French or US camp starving to death, or even worse, sitting in some Russian he**hole.

Offline Hortlund

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« Reply #10 on: June 13, 2002, 03:20:16 PM »
Midnight, you really dont know all that much about history do you?

If you want, I can mail you my sources to that statement of mine (so we can keep the board free of another flame war). Simple fact of the matter is that the statement is correct, like it or not.

Offline Fishu

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« Reply #11 on: June 13, 2002, 03:31:24 PM »
Caligula,

That is quite ignorant and arrogant post when you think of it..

Offline midnight Target

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« Reply #12 on: June 13, 2002, 04:32:30 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Hortlund
Midnight, you really dont know all that much about history do you?

If you want, I can mail you my sources to that statement of mine (so we can keep the board free of another flame war). Simple fact of the matter is that the statement is correct, like it or not.


A. Hortlund, you really don't have a clue when it comes to civil debate do you?
B. My "A" statement is a parody of your opening line. Why would I be interested in learning something from someone with that type of arrogant attitude?
C. You have no clue as to how much or how little I know about history.
D. The US is directly responsible for feeding and rebuilding most of Western Europe after the War. It was called the Marshall Plan. Would you like me to send you some information on it?
E. Why would your sources start a flame war if they are accurate?

Offline Wotan

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« Reply #13 on: June 13, 2002, 05:03:42 PM »
midnight german pows in us camps had a higher mortality rate then the british camps. Theres quotes by us service man about with holding food and one I recall where a us service states that dumped xxx gallons of milk out after letting it sit in the sun for a number of days. All this was done in the sight of the pows who were not feed in some number of days.

Ill dig the quotes up and post umm later.

As for refeeding europe thats not initially true right at the end of the war. Once the marshall plan began this was true. But some may believe that the marshall plan had more to do with keeping the Soviets in check by winning the hearts of western europe.

Right as the war was about to end the "morganthau plan" was leaked which called for the deindustrialization of germany and the use of food stuffs to keep the population in check.

Hortlund is right but you knew that.

A civil debate with you is impossible from your previous posts. The fact you imply Hortlund was trolling undermines you call for a civil debate.

I await your name calling and accussations of being a Nazi revisionist. Dont let me down.

After all lets keep it civil :rolleyes:

Offline Hortlund

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« Reply #14 on: June 13, 2002, 05:26:05 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by midnight Target


A. Hortlund, you really don't have a clue when it comes to civil debate do you?
B. My "A" statement is a parody of your opening line. Why would I be interested in learning something from someone with that type of arrogant attitude?
C. You have no clue as to how much or how little I know about history.
D. The US is directly responsible for feeding and rebuilding most of Western Europe after the War. It was called the Marshall Plan. Would you like me to send you some information on it?
E. Why would your sources start a flame war if they are accurate?


Well, if I sounded arrogant, I apologize. I guess the tone of my post was overly harsh. I felt wrongfully accused of just trying to provoke people with what I wrote. I can handle a civil debate, usually I try to match the level of whomever Im debating with.

Wheter you want to learn something from me despite my arrogant attitude or not is totally up to you. But you are completely right that I have no idea whatsoever as to what you know about history in general, and this subject in particular.

You are completely correct when you say that the Marshall aid rebuilt Europe. But that is not what Im talking about. I'm talking about the French and US POW camps in France and the situations in those camps in 1945-46. I'm talking about German POW's dying by the thousands starving and freezing to death in the winter of 45-46. The exact numbers will never be known, but they range from a low estimate of 56 000, and up to 800 000.

Quote
After an intensive study of American documents and interviews with survivors and perpetrators, the Canadian writer and former publisher James Bacque concluded that just before and after the end of the war German POWs and civilians in American detention camps in Europe died from hunger, exposure, and disease causing conditions as bad as the worse of gulag, and for which General Eisenhower was directly responsible. Bacque's figures are stunning: "undoubtedly . . . over 800,000, almost certainly over 900,000, and quite likely over a million died."


Bacque's numbers are questioned though, mostly from american historians.
Quote

Basque's statistics, arguments, and documentation were subjected to careful and detailed study by a conference of historians organized by Stephen Ambrose, the director of the Eisenhower Center at the University of New Orleans. Papers from the conference have been published claim that Basque misread, misinterpreted, or ignored the relevant documents and that his mortality statistics are simply impossible.

However, the papers do show that some of the camps, particularly the transit camps that became known as the Rheinwiesenlager, were initially lethal, with thousands of German POWs dying, and that these deaths were the responsibility of the American government. While the final toll of the American transit camps was far from that alleged by Bacque, it still could have reached 56,000 dead.


No one really knows how many German soldiers died after the war, that is why the numbers vary so much.  The general consensus among historians today though, is that the post war death toll for German citizens (soldiers and civilians) is between 1 000 000 and 4 500 000 (that is Germans dead from starvation, disease, exposure, violence etc, AFTER the end of the war).

And believe me correct sources can start very ugly flame wars. Just ask boroda and -am- about the winter war or the Soviet invasion of Germany 1945.