Some ideas about buffs.

[Urchin]

Ok, since everyone knows how I feel about em, I won't bother recapping it.  Here are some ideas that I feel are good compromises-

1.  Lessen the zoom feature (on ALL planes).  If possible, make it so a buff at 25k or lower can zoom in all the way while in bomb mode (so it can see fuel and stuff), but a bomber above this height will not be able to pick out individual targets smaller than the hangers.

My next idea will probably be somewhat tough to put in the game, but I think it would be an excellent compromise between removing all ability to fly the plane from the gunners stations and keeping it the way it is (i.e. all the buff guns can still fire at a particular spot in the air, even while the plane is in a 45 degree bank).  I actually had this idea while I was putzing around in a Panzer.  I had climbed up a hill near an enemy base (my god what a climb to, at 4 mph the whole way   ).  After I stopped at the top to kill the acks, I attempted to descend the hill to get into the enemy base and really tear some stuff up.  As I was going down the hill, I came under attack by a particularly persistant LA7.  He never hurt me, and I never really hurt him, but I wanted to keep moving so I'd give him a harder target.  There were some planes taking off from the airfield, so I decided to try to shoot them with the main gun.  I shot at 4 or 5 planes, and I only managed to hit 1 (but boy did that hit hurt!).  The sight was moving and shaking all over the place as the tank rolled (at only 10mph) down the hill.  So I thought my idea #2.

If the buff exceeds a certain angle in a bank, the gunners sights start moving and shaking (mildly at first, but more as the bank gets steeper).  I think this would be valid, because the gunners would be concentrating more on maintaining their balance and their grip on the gun, rather than just maintaining a rock solid lock on the enemy airplane.  I don't think it would effect the ball gunner, but every other station I can think of would be effected by the planes "evasive" manuevers.  How hard would this be to put in, and moreso, do you think it is fair to the buffers?  I do, but I'm hardly what you could call unbiased.

[Toad]

Item 1:  You going to ask for an increased blast radius on the bombs then?

Item 2: Bob Hoover, a stunt pilot, mounted a video camera in his cockpit, set an empty glass on the instrument panel, and poured himself a soft drink while flying full rolls....how'd he do that, anyway?

[Urchin]

#1.  Absolutely.  The bombs SHOULD have a larger blast radius than they do, at least it looks a lot bigger in all the footage I have seen from WW2.  

#2.  I'd wager that the guy was strapped into a seat, although he'd have to have very good aim to pour that soda in a cup held in place by centrifugal force.  That'd be neat to watch, you wouldn't happen to have a clip of it, would you?  Anyway, he is essentially in a "stable" position, being strapped into a seat that effectively negates most of the force that would be present on a human standing or kneeling in a plane that is manuevering.

[Toad]

Well, the glass on the dashboard isn't strapped in. It's just sitting on the glare shield. The CG of the glass is continually changing as it fills. How does it stay there?

Wouldn't the exact same forces be acting on the pilot?

I saw the clip a long time ago... it might be in this video, but I'm not sure.
 http://www.flyrightproductions.com/BobHooverVideo.htm

[Urchin]

I'd have to guess (and it is only a guess, I'm no physicist) that it actually doesn't matter what the CG of the glass is- it is effectively "glued" into place by the centrifugal force.  Now, if the man had held a 45 degree banking turn and still managed to pour that soda into the glass without making a HUGE mess, I'd buy the argument that the gunners in the B17s wouldn't be affected by the same type of force.

[Toad]

When your airline flight goes into a 30 degree banked turn and holds it for 180 degrees, are you thrown all over the cabin?

Does the meal tray slide on to the floor?

Can a flight attendant refill your wine glass while the aircraft is in a turn?

If you're wizzing in the john at the moment, do you spray all over the walls?

(Story would be the same at 45 degrees, btw. G load would be a bit higher. In fact, you can go all the way to 50 degrees with only about 1.5 G. Just used 30 because that's about the max you'll ever see on an airliner. 20-25 is more common.)

[whirl]

those are good arguments toad but........they don't take into account many things...  only 1 i need to mention:  roll rate.  when a 17 yanks and banks, the roll rate is much greater(its not sustaining g's)than the lazy, sustained g turns of a liner.  if you were to mount a 50 cal out the back of a liner, of course you'd be able to acquire a target.  now add tracking a moving target with non-sustained g's and bam, you get spray n pray.  there is no argument to that so ya don't need to reply<BFG>

[whirl]

before ya get bent out of shape--the not needing to reply comment was a joke/;^/

[Urchin]

Originally posted by Toad:
When your airline flight goes into a 30 degree banked turn and holds it for 180 degrees, are you thrown all over the cabin?

No, but again, we are seated- not standing.  I suspect the turn would have more "force" if you will if the passengers were standing up.  Also, when they bank they are applying a constant force backwards on the stick, pushing you back into your seat.  If you were standing, you would feel a force pushing you backwards (I think, if this is not the case please let me know, I have not been on an airplane in a very long time).

Does the meal tray slide on to the floor?
No, but there are little grippers on them from what I remember, to add friction between your little tray on your lap and the dinner tray.

Can a flight attendant refill your wine glass while the aircraft is in a turn?

This, I actually don't know.  I've never drank on an airplane, nor paid much attention to anyone drinking.  I'd assume yes, since you asked it.

If you're wizzing in the john at the moment, do you spray all over the walls?

Man.. why'd you have to bring THAT up?!  It was only the ONE time, OK?!     .  Actually, good question, never been going to the bathroom when the plane turned.  I imagine if you werent careful you could end up with a little "spray and pray" action.

(Story would be the same at 45 degrees, btw. G load would be a bit higher. In fact, you can go all the way to 50 degrees with only about 1.5 G. Just used 30 because that's about the max you'll ever see on an airliner. 20-25 is more common.)

[ 09-20-2001: Message edited by: Urchin ]

[ 09-20-2001: Message edited by: Urchin ]

[AN]

I find this whole buff discussion very interesting, because I saw the whole thing happen in AW, extremely similar to what people are saying here.

In that light, I'll post something I posted at one time during that 'other' discussion...

From the book Air Command -- Fighters and Bombers of WWII by Jeffrey L. Ethell

"Bob Kennedy B17 tail gunner, 303rd Bomb Group
...Suddenly, all hell broke loose!  A '17 to our rear began belching flames rrom number two engine and started peeling off.  All this time there was no radio warning of attack.  I stared in amazement as what looked like a hundred blurry shapes came in, all (in my mind) aiming directly at us.  I was trying to get my helmet on when little firecrackers began breaking around the tail and the blurry shapes turned into fighters with wings and cowlings flickering with little lights.  I tried to get my guns unlimbered; then some reflex action, probably terror, made me yell to the pilot, 'Curley, the whole damn Luftwaffe is out here--pull her up!'  What happened then took me and the waist gunner completely out of the action, but very probably saved our lives!

Neither I nor any of the crew had ever been on a '17 being yanked up and down--twice.  Imagine the most vicious roller coaster ride possible, take off the restraints, load a bunch of goods around you, and you're in a loose but confined space.  That's it!  I was smashed up and almost through the roof.  Everything loose--flak suit, escape bag, shoes, helmet--all flew up and down with me and ended up in a heap flopping with me on the floor.  Then before I could do much of anything, up, then down again!  I fell over backwards, narrowly missing the seat horn with my crotch.  This time, to give an idea of the sheer violence of the whiplashes, the ammunition on the right storage bin somehow jumped out and about five feet of heavy .50-caliber ammo added to the mess.

On my hands and knees, I tried to free my oxygen tube (caught in the ammo mess), get a glove back on (torn loose by the gun butts), and get the flak suit off me, along with the ammo, all at the same time.  I glanced for a second out the right window and saw the crew coming out the waist of the nearest '17 off our left horizontal stabilizer.  Still frantic to be able to move and breathe, in the next second I glanced up again and there sat--and I mean sat--an Fw 190 right off our left stabilizer, so close I could have wing-walked over to him.  He must have just finished firing, because a yellow-white cloud of smoke came back from somewhere front like..."

just sayin'

anRky

[GRUNHERZ]

Toad.......

[Toad]

If you will note from my very first post, you'll see I've said nothing about violent maneuvers. Nothing.

Someone here, however, is trying to make the case that bank angle and G load... any G load... makes it impossible to stand up or aim or whatever.

This is simply incorrect and the replies show it.

Urchin, do this: put " bank angle G load" in any search engine. Look at the G load at 30 degrees of bank in a level turn (the charts are for a level turn).

Then come back and tell me if you  could withstand that immense force while standing up.

Forgive me for not just giving you all these answers.

Grun, I'm not making any case for shooting from a buff or otherwise. I'm trying to impart a basic understanding of the relationship between bank angle and G load so he can come to better understanding of what he's discussing.

... and you'll note I'm doing it without foul-mouthing anyone.  

[Urchin]

Will do Toad.  I'm sorry if I seem ignorant, I really don't know much about physics and stuff like that.

Bank Angle Acceleration
10° 1.02 G
20° 1.06 G
30° 1.15 G
40° 1.31 G
50° 1.56 G
60° 2.00 G
70° 2.92 G
80° 5.76 G
85° 11.47 G
87° 19.11 G

I found this chart.  Yes, I think I could probably "withstand the G force" up to about 60 degrees, but you also have to take into account maintaining your balance.  Could I stand on a 60 degree slope (which the "floor" of the plane would be at a 60 degree bank), and maintain my aim on an attacking fighter?  I don't know, honestly.  I'd weigh 400 pounds, and all 400 pounds would be wanting to pull me away from my gun.  That could make it tough to aim, I think at least.  

Even at a 30 degree bank-  I'd be 230 pounds of gunner that was trying to stand on a 30 degree tilted floor, all the while trying to maintain my aim on a fighter and fighting the 230 pounds that is trying to pull me away from my gun.  

I'm not trying to sound antagonistic (and I probably sound stupid), I honestly think that maintaining your balance on a 30 degree slope and aiming at a moving target would cause problems- especially with gravity attempting to pull you away (or force you into) your gun.

[ 09-20-2001: Message edited by: Urchin ]

[Karnak]

Originally posted by Urchin:
1. Lessen the zoom feature (on ALL planes).

Urchin,

That zoom (non-bombsight) is to allow us to see things the size they really wold be.

Normally in AH we have 90 degrees of vision crammed into a 15" to 21" area, depending on your monitor.  I absolutely assure you that my monitor does not occupy 90 degrees of my vision.  We need that wide angle view to have any SA at all.  We need the zoom to, what is it, about 15 degrees in order to see things in size perspective.  To be able to see details and fine tune our aim.  My 19" monitor occupies about 15 degrees of my vision.

[Toad]

Just trying to point out that it depends on the type of maneuver.

Violent maneuvers will bounce you all over the place.

Co-ordinated turns are a different matter. Remember too that the feet are on the floor and both hands are on a gun that is firmly attached to the airplane. Your basic three-point stance.

I'm not making the case that the buff maneuvers that we often see in AH wouldn't beat you to death.. they probably would.

I'm making the case that... "it depends". It all depends on what the airplane is doing. And a co-ordinated turn wouldn't be that bad.

That's all.