Author Topic: Bader strange tactics  (Read 159 times)

Offline agosling

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Bader strange tactics
« on: June 14, 2002, 05:57:10 PM »
I'm reading Michael G. Burns' book "Bader - The Man and His Men". I have run across several references to a move that I just don't understand. They all go something like this: "I saw tracer coming over my right wing, so I broke hard left to face the bandits..."

Now, what I don't understand is, if the bandit is close enough to send tracer over your wing, how are you going to turn around to face him? Breaking, I understand, but many of the descriptions then go on to talk about HO shots. How can you turn a Spit II, or anything for that matter, into a bandit who must be at most 600 off your 6?

Any ideas?

Offline AKDejaVu

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Bader strange tactics
« Reply #1 on: June 14, 2002, 06:40:02 PM »
They were farther than 600 yards away?

Offline Shane

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Bader strange tactics
« Reply #2 on: June 15, 2002, 01:49:16 AM »
yeah them silly luftweenie spray n pray dweebs... they'd choke like the Spurs if they tried playing AH with it's LW ballistics modeling.  :rolleyes:
Surrounded by suck and underwhelmed with mediocrity.
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Offline ccvi

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Bader strange tactics
« Reply #3 on: June 15, 2002, 07:53:23 AM »
Maybe...

tracers are probably best visible from behind, so if tracers are visible over the right wing, they're coming from the left. Obviously the con is left, too, where the rounds are coming from.

Offline scspook

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Bader strange tactics
« Reply #4 on: June 15, 2002, 09:58:49 AM »
I read a similar book on Bader. May even have been the same under a different title.  I dont think any ever said Bader was a Brilliant pilot. He did have a habit of being shot down after all.
An incredibly brave and experienced one yes. But not necessarily a great one.

Then again...define greatness.

The point I think in the original post was how did he turn to meet the enemy at 600 yards?

He states if your post is correct, the term bandits, meaning more than one.  Its entirely possible then, that he was not going to achieve a headon confrontation with his attacker (ie; the one firing at him) but his comrades flying behind and therefore enter an engagement with his attacker as he turns to meet the Bader threat also.

Tho I imagine this would be pretty stupid of Bader unless there is more to the scheme than that.  Was the followon related to his evading his pursuers?
« Last Edit: June 15, 2002, 10:02:35 AM by scspook »

Offline hazed-

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Bader strange tactics
« Reply #5 on: June 15, 2002, 12:28:42 PM »
Bader not a great pilot? sheesh that really boils my ass!

If you want to class a pilot as great purely on the number of aircraft shot down then you fail to see the rest of the picture.

Bader was crippled in a flying accident whilst performing a barrel roll.Losing both legs.He not only defied all convention and battled his way back into the RAF.He bacame a great squadron leader and it was often remarked that his cool calm leadership settled the green pilots.He was renouned for his selfless protection of his newest squadron pilots.He shot down a damn good share of the enemy and developed and pushed through newer and better tactics at a time when demanding such changes was unheard of in the RAF.This man may have come accross as arrogent at times and he certainly didnt care whos toes he stepped on to get done what he thought was needed to be done.But if he wasnt exactly the way he was he could never have overcome his terrible injuries.I have had experience of diabilitation and believe me its no easy task to climb back from such things.To me this makes Baders story all the more important and all the more incredible.His story is very close to my heart and i consider him a true hero of our times.
No Luftwaffe pilot,American,Russian etc can hold a candle to this man as far as im concerned.

His big wing tactics may not hold up in modern tactical analisis and may have been incorrect but there needed to be changes and he helped make the RAF a more flexible army.The tactic also hurt LW morale terribly as documented in their stories of huge numbers of fighters arriving at times when they thought the RAF beaten.You cannot disgard anything that contributed to the final victory.The most kills is a good guide to a great pilot but it sure isnt the whole story.

sorry for snapping but this mans story is close to my heart and makes me proud to be British when i read about him.I very much doubt that many of us could have coped with the pressure heaped upon him for so long or had the will to fight our way back to such a position after losing both legs.His spirit was amazing, theres no other word for it.

Lest we forget.

Offline Revvin

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Bader strange tactics
« Reply #6 on: June 15, 2002, 12:53:44 PM »
Don't let it get to you Hazed there are plenty of people out there ready and willing to try and run down people who have performed truely heroic act's in their time. On quite a number of occassions Channel 4 (a TV station here in the UK for those who don't know) did a series on the 'real truth' behind a series of such people as Bader. The series really made my blood boil as the producers again and again dug up any minor indescretion and blew it all out of proportion and each and every person they attacked were long since passed and unable to defend themselves, truly sad.

Offline agosling

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« Reply #7 on: June 15, 2002, 03:12:55 PM »
It wasn't just Bader's description. Other pilot's had similar debriefing stories. I suspect maybe its just an efffect of how they reported things, not necessarily how they fought them. The message I get from most of the reports is that the action (in these cases of meeting enemy fighters) was very fast-paced, and in most cases did not last very long. The flight gets jumped, breaks up. Some pilots find themselves suddenly alone in the sky, others are going down with damage, and every once in a while, someone is able to grab 2-3 snapshots. Then everyone (enemy included) heads for the deck and bugs out.

As far as the post(s) about Bader as a pilot himself, I have no doubt after reading this book that he was, truly, a great pilot. One does not necessarily get shot down (and survive many times, btw) by being a bad pilot, but by putting oneself in harm's way (part of the job). Bader's emphasis was (correctly) always on getting the bombers that were attacking his family, friends and countrymen.

Beyond being a great pilot, though, he was an exceptional leader, preparing, motivating and setting the example for his men as a wing (not just squadron) leader.

As far as the big wing tactics go, I have formed the following opinion while reading this book. I know I'll get flamed for it, but here it is.

Many people think Dowding was wrong for allowing 11 group and 12 group to have this dispute, and not sacking either Leigh-Mallory or (I think it was Parks, but not sure) 11 Group leader. If you look at the map, however, it makes sense that 12 group would employ big wing tactics to intercept bombers coming up the Thames estuary. They had time to climb, get up-sun, and deploy high cover before the main force went after the bombers. Many people seem to forget that the bmbers were the real targets. Dogfighting Me109s over the Thames only helped insofar as it drew them away from the force that was trying to kill the bombers that were trying to kill Londoners (my Mother among them). 11 Group, on the other hand, being closer to the raids, was actually climbing up under the action, and would naturally employ different tactics. I think that Dowding, far from being ineffective during this dispute on tactics, was actually very astute, and let both groups implement the tactics that worked best for them.

Through it all, Bader exemplified what was needed in a fighter and a leader. He cared about his men, trained them, took care of them in flight, and most of all, never forgot the primary mission, which was to get the d*** bombers! And all this on artificial legs :) The only criticism that rings true is tht he did not know how to delegate, and took everything on himself, leading to exhaustion, leading to his capture.

Offline BUG_EAF322

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Bader strange tactics
« Reply #8 on: June 15, 2002, 10:45:24 PM »
..

Offline scspook

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Bader strange tactics
« Reply #9 on: June 16, 2002, 12:02:18 AM »
Settle down boys. Nobodys running down Bader. Certainly not me.  I believe I mention in there somewhere about defining greatness and that his courage was not in question.

Bader was a great man and an exceptional one at that displaying courage and fortitude rarely seen, however he was not a "Great" pilot.  (Before you bring out the knives). He was a good pilot, but not a great one. His exemplary acts of bravery and determination are not in question at all.

I to am English by birth and im not one thats prone to knock his own nations heros. So please read a little more into it than the first instance reaction of hero beating.

Cheers.