Author Topic: Loss of outer wing (Read 1487 times)

Yeager · « **on:** January 28, 2000, 02:10:00 PM »

How many folks here have lost the outer half of one wing and still managed to maintian control of the damaged aircraft? Managed to RTB of even get a kill?

I was in a P51 over enemy F5 at 15k when I was bounced from low 6 by a defending Spitfire. I Received a hard hit and lost the outer half of my left wing. I flew this FM all the way back to friendly F16 and set down for a touchy landing and RTBd successfully.

My understanding of aerodynamics is such that most planes from this era would go into an immediate violent spiral in the direction of the lost lift and continue in this fashion until earth got in the way.

I have experienced this same damage and survived in a P51, F4U and N1K.

I have not experienced this in the Spit, Me109, FW-190, LA5 or either multi engined FM
so I wonder what varaibles in the individual code are allowing these behaviors in some FMs and not others?

I do not know what I am talking about.

I was not here.

Yeager

[This message has been edited by Yeager (edited 01-28-2000).]

Ripsnort · « **Reply #1 on:** January 28, 2000, 02:21:00 PM »

I dunno, I've seen alot of Photo's of shot-up airframes making it back across the channel, I don't recall seeing any P-51's with shot-up wings but I'm sure there were some...I think that the visual we should be seeing is only about 1/4 of the wing (wing tip) removed, what we are seeing is half the wing removed, and yes, I would tend to agree that it should start a spiral.

------------------
Brian "Ripsnort" Nelson
++JG2++ ~Richthofen~
(Formerly VF-101 Grim Reapers~Defected~)
"There is no reason anyone would
want a computer in their home."
Ken Olson, president, chairman and
founder of Digital Equipment Corp.,1977

Heckel · « **Reply #2 on:** January 28, 2000, 02:31:00 PM »

I shot both wings off of a B-26, clear to the engines, and it continued to merrily strafe the field we were defending. The pilot was just as surprised as I was.

Robert Johnson's bullet-riddled P-47 suffered the additional indignity of having a Focke-Wulf empty its mg mags into it as it was limping home to England, and all he could do was duck into his armoured seat back and pray. Both wings were intact, but not much else. But that's a jug.

-Heckel
THUNDERBIRDS

[This message has been edited by Heckel (edited 01-28-2000).]

Rojo · « **Reply #3 on:** January 28, 2000, 02:38:00 PM »

I've successfully RTB'd or ditched many times with the damage you describe. Even had both wings clipped and managed to successfully ditch (actually much easier than with only one wing clipped). What I'd like to see when I look out the window is what it really looked like, with torn metal and wires hanging out.

Most of the damage modeled visually probably doesn't match what is being modeled mathmatically; not exactly, anyway. If you really lost your whole vertical stab, no a/c would be able to maintain stable flight; same with vator. Notice that the damabe message doesn't say "elevator gone" but says "elevator damaged." The same is probably true for the "clipped" wing damage.

Perhaps it's a limitation of the 3D engine that it has to display damage as a clean break/removal of a damaged section. Instead of the whole outboard wing section simply snipped off, it would be better to look out and find swiss cheese like damage and jagget edges. I just don't know if the graphics engine would allow it.

While were on the subject of how things look from the cockpit, I really want to see better graphics to represent damage to ground targets. Wouldn't be much more emersive if ground objects actually blew up instead of disappearing? With expanding fireballs, debris raining down (we have it for a/c, afterall), and secondary explosions? And what about scortched foundations, with jagged walls rising up? How about it, HTC?

Sabre (a.k.a. Rojo)

Heckel · « **Reply #4 on:** January 28, 2000, 03:47:00 PM »

I'm no expert, but to model the truly ravaged a/c, you'd have to come up with, or obtain a fractal-based 3D program. Is there such a beast? That's what you want to see, really, is the iterative effect of a surface torn to bits, which is, in essence, fractal.

The first time I noticed a spiderwebbed bullethole in my 190's canopy in EAW, I was as happy as a little girl...

<absently pats monkey, Klaus, on head.>

-Heckel
THUNDERBIRDS
"This is time on Sprockets when we all dance!"

[This message has been edited by Heckel (edited 01-28-2000).]

Vermillion · « **Reply #5 on:** January 28, 2000, 06:31:00 PM »

I have managed to land the P51, F4U, Fw190, and the La5 (and maybe the N1K2) all missing the outter section of a wing.

The key is to try and keep at around 200-225 IAS. Any faster and the whole wing will create too much lift and "lift up" that side. Any slower and you get into low speed torque effects that are very deadly as well.

So keep it in that speed range, and then belly land it.

If you slow down to drop the gear or try to use flaps you will probably bite the dust, literally

------------------
Vermillion
**MOL**, Men of Leisure,
Dicta Verm: "Never give the suckers an even break!" or translated "Never engage without an advantage"

Extreme · « **Reply #6 on:** January 28, 2000, 07:05:00 PM »

I've been able to do this with the F4u and Nik. Having lost both outter wings, I've been able to rtb and land safely.

With the F4u, I've managed to still get kills in a BnZ style of attack with half an outter wing shot off...

Ex.

Aussie · « **Reply #7 on:** January 29, 2000, 05:51:00 AM »

I flew the F4U last night, lost my starboard outer wing and my left aileron. Was able to fly pretty well as long as I reduced engine revs, otherwise tork roll made it difficult to maintain control in the turn.

I thought at the time how interesting it was that they seem to have modelled the reduced stability with a short wing, but still allowed aileron control as if the aileron from the missing outer wing was still there.

Might be something to look at.

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aussie
Phoenix Squadron
-----
Any ship can be a minesweeper... once.

Hristo · « **Reply #8 on:** January 29, 2000, 07:17:00 AM »

Happened to me few times in 190. Once a Spit was d8-9 behind, spraying at me. I lost right wingtip. His recoil slowed him down and I simply outran him, no speed penalty whatsoever.

On another occasion Niki took my wingtip in 190, I outdove it anyway, limped back home for 2 sectors and landed

The just 190 requires correct triming and some alt to work with in case of lost wingtip, and it can fly home. When landing, the speed is good to be higher than usual, for wing might drop.

In 109 I lost control every time I lost a wingtip. I did not try to cut power, however, enemies were still around. No matter how much alt and speed I had, or how much trim input I put, the 109 was lost. It just does violent roll which cannot be stopped.

On one occasion I shot whole wing off Niki. To the wingroot ! It kept flying for long time, however, what was witnessed by other players. I got the kill some 10 minutes later, when it tried to land.

Saw some P 51D fly without wingtips too.

eagl · « **Reply #9 on:** January 29, 2000, 12:40:00 PM »

Yeager,

It's deliberate on the part of HTC for this outer wing damage to make your plane almost uncontrollable, but still flyable if the pilot has some skill.

I very strongly prefer this feature over the past model which was if you got ANY major structural wing damage, the plane immediately exploded or crashed. I'm glad they were able to put in a "severely damaged but still flyable" damage mode because this gives the players more gameplay options. Instead of flying in to a fight and either exiting intact or dying, now just like in real life there's a chance that if the bad guy gets you with a non-lethal hit, you can still egress and land your damaged plane.

I think the graphics show a little more wing missing than would actually be a flyable condition, but I agree 100% with what they are modelling - Non-fatal wing damage.

Have you guys seen the pics of the Israeli F-15 that landed without one entire wing? It's an amazing picture. One wing is broken off at the wing root, but the pilot maintained control and landed. His touchdown speed was somewhere around 300 knots (normal touchdown would be between 120 and 140) and he lost control once during the RTB but regained it by increasing speed.

I don't have a link to the pics, but I'm sure someone in here knows where they can be found on the web.

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eagl <squealing Pigs> BYA
Oink Oink To War!!!

spinny · « **Reply #10 on:** January 30, 2000, 06:19:00 AM »

Ah, I don't think you really lose half your wing. That's just a graphical representation of big-time wing damage. Right now the graphics modelling doesn't support holes, tatters, etc. So, you've still got a whole wing as far as the plane is concerned, only thing is, is a whole pretty holey wing

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Spinny, VF-17, The Jolly Rogers 8X

Yeager · « **Reply #11 on:** January 30, 2000, 11:56:00 AM »

I think you guys are right. When the entire wing is gone its "buh-bye". But when there is still a decent stub you can "try" to bring it down and meet with some success.

Thanks eag1

Yeager

[This message has been edited by Yeager (edited 01-30-2000).]

funked · « **Reply #12 on:** January 30, 2000, 12:16:00 PM »

I think the loss of the outer wing is just a visual thing, symbolizing heavy damage to the outer panels.

eagl · « **Reply #13 on:** January 30, 2000, 09:33:00 PM »

OOOOKKKKKK.......... I'll bite

For the last time yeager (or is it y3ag3r?), it's eagL!

I dueled some guy wearing eag1 for an ident, and after I beat him fair and square he changed his ident. He was cool about it too, which suprised me. Can't remember his new ident though.

In any case, I EARNED that "L" so you damn well better spe11 it correct1y!

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eagl <squealing Pigs> BYA
Oink Oink To War!!!

[This message has been edited by eagl (edited 01-30-2000).]

Yeager · « **Reply #14 on:** January 30, 2000, 10:55:00 PM »

lol!.........

Dont get mad eagL, I was callin ram1 "ramL"
fer a year before someone emailed me privately pointing out what a dickhead I was!

Im soo confused......

DOH!

YeagLer

Author Topic: Loss of outer wing (Read 1487 times)

Heckel

Rojo

Heckel

spinny

funked