Author Topic: Invisible Planes First Real AH Gameplay Crisis  (Read 1288 times)

Offline AKcurly

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1509
Invisible Planes First Real AH Gameplay Crisis
« Reply #30 on: June 16, 2002, 06:15:26 AM »
I would bet on hosed windows network software.  Once in another flight sim, I crashed, re-upped and no one could see me.  I flew around and marveled that I could see everyone, but no one could see me.  About 4 minutes later, there was a kill message in the buffer "xyz killed AKcurly."

I asked xyz where he was located and he was miles away.  I flew around 5 or 6 more minutes, expecting to die in a hail of lagged bullets, but nothing ever happened.

In similar fashion, maybe 1.5 years ago, I was in Aces High and saddled up on someone.  They didn't attempt to evade.  I don't recall who it was, but about 1 minute later, he said over arena-wide comms, "curly, where were you?"  I was a good 25 miles from where he said I shot him down.

Windows networking software is REALLY bad code.   It has to co-exist with other code and sometimes REALLY FREAKING weird stuff happens.

My $0.02 anyway. :)

curly

Offline Hortlund

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 4690
Invisible Planes First Real AH Gameplay Crisis
« Reply #31 on: June 16, 2002, 08:00:12 AM »
Well, there is a problem though. Even though AH "is just a game", it is still a game we all pay $15 a month to enjoy. Some spend their $15 flying Spitfires and/or La7s, some spend their $15 killing FHs from 35k Lancs, some spend their $15 diving into the nearest furball with their guns blazing.

And that is all and well.

But NO ONE will spend their $15 on getting shot down by invisible planes, or shoot down others who cant see them. If you dont realize this, then you are in for a surprise. This invisible plane-bug is killing the game for everyone. How fun is a furball if you cant see half the planes? How fun is buffing if you get shot down by someone you cant see? How fun is lonewolfing if it turns out that during your latest successful bounce, you were completely invisible?

Fact is, the knowledge that there might be invisible planes out there, or even worse the fact that I cannot be sure that my aircraft is showing up on the other guys FE kills the gaming experience even now.

So yeah, I'd say this qualifies as a crisis.

Offline Heinkel

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1256
      • http://www.3-jg2.com
Invisible Planes First Real AH Gameplay Crisis
« Reply #32 on: June 16, 2002, 08:07:31 AM »
Here! Here! GRUNHERZ. I feel the same exact way. The other night i was flying along in my Dora, when all of a sudden, i head "Ping, ping, ping, ping". Tail fell off. As I was slowy falling down, i scaned the sky, saw nothing. Then i bailed out, again saw nothing. This invisable plane left me dumbfounded and confused. I have the confidence that HTC can fix it though :)

Offline Swager

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1352
Invisible Planes First Real AH Gameplay Crisis
« Reply #33 on: June 16, 2002, 08:47:00 AM »
I will not stand for this!  My K/D  went from a 1.21 to a 1.18!!

How can I claim my superior ability to the AH world if this continues?  I need this K/D to prove I am one of the best!  How can anyone have any respect for me without a impressive K/D??

These invisible planes are overthrowing the entire AH arena and have decreased my K/D by 0.03!

Please HTC!  Please get rid of these diabolical invisible planes before they ruin my life fruther.

Thank you for your time and effort concerning this matter.
Rock:  Ya see that Ensign, lighting the cigarette?
Powell: Yes Rock.
Rock: Well that's where I got it, he's my son.
Powell: Really Rock, well I'd like to meet him.
Rock:  No ya wouldn't.

Offline Hajo

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 6035
Invisible Planes First Real AH Gameplay Crisis
« Reply #34 on: June 16, 2002, 12:11:26 PM »
I've also been shot down by something.  Was 18K in the middle of Bishlandia...........heard hits......in tower.......you have been killed was the message.  No credit given to anyone. Yes Virginia........there really is a UFO!:D
- The Flying Circus -

Offline Bullethead

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1018
      • http://people.delphiforums.com/jtweller
Invisible Planes First Real AH Gameplay Crisis
« Reply #35 on: June 16, 2002, 02:41:24 PM »
Flossy said:
Quote
Are you sure that wasn't the mannable ack gun?  It was discovered during the Sicily scenario, that mannable ack guns do not show any tracers - but it certainly had us scratching our heads at the time!  :)


Yeah, I'm sure it wasn't that.  The only ack in the sector, that at V64, was friendly and didn't have an LOS to me anyway.  The battle was fought on the northern approaches of V64.  V64 is on a plateau.  If you drive north from the VH about 1/2 mile, you go over the edge into a long, wide valley running NNW between 2 mountain ranges.  You can't see into this valley until you're at the edge of the plateau and I'd driven over the edge and about 1/2 mile down the hill to park on a tan area of ground for camouflage.  And even from there, it was still like 2500m to the nme spawn point up the valley.  

So I was like 1 mile from the nearest ack, that ack was friendly, and I was well below the edge of the plateau to it.  Yet I and several colleagues all died for no apparent reason.  I was the 4th kill of whoever got me.  I wasn't filming and I didn't pay any attention to who got me because at the time I didn't know about the invisible nme issue.  It wasn't until I came in here later that night that I saw this thread.

Invisibility cheats are nothing new.  I've seen them a number of times over the years, in both DOS and Windows AW and now in AH (don't recall them in WB).  I even got a guy busted in DOS AW for doing it--he made the mistake of bragging about it in progress, and you could see him on radar, just not in the air.  And not only was he invisible, he was doing about Mach 2 :).

As for planes disappearing for a while, then reappearing further along, I've seen that before as well.  Folks can interrupt their data flow to the host so for all intents and purposes they're not in the arena, fly along for a while on their FE, then reconnect to the host and thus reappear at their new place.  Alternatively, they can also stop their FE, so that when they reappear it's in the same place they vanished, leading to you overshooting them and then finding them on your 6.  There were a variety of ways to do these things in Windows AW and Kesmai could never quite figure out how to stop all of them.

On the subject of connection quality, that's definitely not a universal problem.  I haven't suffered a real disco at all (IIRC) in the last 3 or 4 TDs.  Of course, RL problems have limited me to 20-50 hops only each TD, but I'm also squad scorekeeper and I haven't seen many in my squad, either.  Some of my squaddies always have a very high percentage, however.  

For instance, run a squad score on me, BH3841.  At present, we have 1 guy with 480 sorties but only 10 discos, one with 212 sorties and 0 discos, while another guy has 7 discos in only 15 sorties.  I have 1 "disco" in 14 hops but that's on me, not the connection--my computer locked up once and I pulled the plug on it.

However, despite the fact that I don't get dumped, I do see a fair number of warps, but only really just beyond con range, not during fights.  It's quite acceptable, people die when I hit them, I die when they shoot at me, and all seems pretty much normal, although I am seeing more dots warping than before.  So when the "how is connection quality" poll came up, I answered it "good but not great".

Offline Widewing

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 8801
Invisible Planes First Real AH Gameplay Crisis
« Reply #36 on: June 16, 2002, 06:06:18 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Swager
I will not stand for this!  My K/D  went from a 1.21 to a 1.18!!

How can I claim my superior ability to the AH world if this continues?  I need this K/D to prove I am one of the best!  How can anyone have any respect for me without a impressive K/D??

These invisible planes are overthrowing the entire AH arena and have decreased my K/D by 0.03!

Please HTC!  Please get rid of these diabolical invisible planes before they ruin my life fruther.

Thank you for your time and effort concerning this matter.


You might not find it so amusing if you saw your K/D drop by 1.4 rather than 0.03. That's what I'm unhappy about. My complaint centers on discos more than invisible aircraft, although my Yak was damaged by a phantom fighter the other night. 5.2 down to 3.8 due entirely to discos is not a minor difference. I find it very annoying. Guys trying to crack the top 100 in overall score would find it unbearable.

My regards,

Widewing
My regards,

Widewing

YGBSM. Retired Member of Aces High Trainer Corps, Past President of the DFC, retired from flying as Tredlite.

Offline scspook

  • Copper Member
  • **
  • Posts: 119
      • The Skeleton Crew BBS
Invisible Planes First Real AH Gameplay Crisis
« Reply #37 on: June 16, 2002, 06:21:00 PM »
WW2Ol suffered from planes that wouldnt appear or would disappear due to the limitations on what the sim could see. Despite boasting of playing alongside 10000's players + I think the limit at any one time was 64.  (Not complainin about this as I understand its a limitation inherent in all sims and they do it better than most)

However, how many can you physically see in AH? 32?

This would include I imagine any ground units below in that may be out of your field of view but present none the less.  Is it possible the server drops one momentarily to accomodate another?

Offline Intrepid

  • Zinc Member
  • *
  • Posts: 39
Invisible Planes First Real AH Gameplay Crisis
« Reply #38 on: June 16, 2002, 07:32:55 PM »
Quote
I will not stand for this! My K/D went from a 1.21 to a 1.18!!


swager, swager, swager a 1.21 K?D? we  know ya couldn't hit the broadside of a barn even if you was standin' inside of one! :p
« Last Edit: June 16, 2002, 07:36:42 PM by Intrepid »

Offline Bullethead

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1018
      • http://people.delphiforums.com/jtweller
Invisible Planes First Real AH Gameplay Crisis
« Reply #39 on: June 16, 2002, 08:37:53 PM »
Widewing whined:
Quote
You might not find it so amusing if you saw your K/D drop by 1.4 rather than 0.03. That's what I'm unhappy about.  ... 5.2 down to 3.8 due entirely to discos is not a minor difference.  ...  My complaint centers on discos more than invisible aircraft...


There are, of course, many known errors and inconsistencies in the results printed on the score pages for squads and pilots.  As a result, it's kinda pointless to look at the K/D shown there.  Take your score page for example.  It shows the following for fighters:

K / D + 1 = 3.8148

103 kills
36 assists
94 sorties
62 landings
5 bails
2 ditches
4 captureds
13 deaths
8 discos

103 kills is unambiguous, so solving for "deaths" (as meant in the K/D formula) we get D = (103 / 3.8148) - 1 = 26

You have 13 actual deaths so we need 13 more fates that the K/D formula treats as deaths.  IIRC from what HTC has said in the past, discos don't count as deaths, so that leaves bails, ditches, and captureds, and I don't think ditches are supposed to count, either.  But in your case, those only add up to 11, not the 13 needed.  In fact, for your there is no combination of non-landed, non-dead fates that equals the requried 13 except discos + bails.

This makes no sense.  Why count bails but not captureds?  Why count discos at all?  Also, if that's how it's really working, it's in contradition to what HTC has said in the past.  So there's obviously a bug in the formula.  In which case, pay no attention to your score page.  I recommend instead looking at your  stats page.  There, you've got 182 kills / 43 deaths = a real K/D of 4.23.

I recommend the stats page for figuring your K/D for a number of other reasons.  First, the score page doesn't show kills of GVs unless you're in a GV, nor does it show kills scored as a ship/field gunner.  Second, the stats page only shows deaths when somebody else got credit for killing you.  So say you need to join a mission that's starting quickly and you've just taken off doing something else.  Instead of making everybody wait while you rtb, you can just auger.  If no nmes are around to get the manuever kill, it doesn't show as a death on the stats page, and thus doesn't affect a K/D computed therefrom.

In any case, I really don't think discos count as deaths for the K/D formula, or at least they ain't supposed to.  If they were counted as deaths, why bother keeping track of them separately on the score page?  You'll note that each sortie can only end in a limited number of ways, each of which is tracked separately.  You can land, ditch, bail, get captured, die, or disco.  If you add up the numbers in each of these separate fates, you get the same number as the total sorties.  IOW, only 1 of the above happens to you each time you fly.

Way back in DOS AW, discos were lumped into actual deaths.  This led to a lot of whining so eventually AW changed to counting discos as bails.  Apparently AW was incapable of adding more separate fate types.  Then WB started and IIRC, it always tracked discos separately and didn't count them as deaths for its K/D formula.  If AH does, then I figure it's a bug in the score formula and not intentional.

Offline Bullethead

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1018
      • http://people.delphiforums.com/jtweller
Invisible Planes First Real AH Gameplay Crisis
« Reply #40 on: June 16, 2002, 09:00:56 PM »
scspook said:
Quote
WW2Ol suffered from planes that wouldnt appear or would disappear due to the limitations on what the sim could see. Despite boasting of playing alongside 10000's players + I think the limit at any one time was 64.  ... how many can you physically see in AH? 32?

This would include I imagine any ground units below in that may be out of your field of view but present none the less.  Is it possible the server drops one momentarily to accomodate another?


Good suggestion, but this explanation would only come into play in big fights.  It doesn't explain incidents of  the "I'm flying along all by myself and BANG!" type, nor ones like mine when there were at most a dozen GVs total and maybe 2 or 3 planes in the area.

Gawd, I remember DOS AW and only being able to see 12 planes at a time.  To mitigate this somewhat, you had control over which 12 you could see:  the 12 closest in general, the 12 closest nmes, or the 12 closest friendlies.  If you were in one of the latter 2 modes, and there were less than 12 of the selected type in viz range, you saw some of the other type as well.  Talk about making scenarios a horror show!  :eek:

Offline AKIron

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 13292
Invisible Planes First Real AH Gameplay Crisis
« Reply #41 on: June 16, 2002, 09:13:42 PM »
There have been a few times when I was shot down by a plane I'd have sworn wasn't there a few seconds before. I chalk it up to poor SA on my part or net lag.

A few times however I've upped and headed to an enemy base where I knew there was a raging dogfight. I saw no planes, neither enemy nor friendly. Out of curiosity I straffed the field ack and/or other buildings. Never was able to confirm if the damage I was causing was seen by anyone else.
Here we put salt on Margaritas, not sidewalks.

Offline superpug1

  • Probation
  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 929
Invisible Planes First Real AH Gameplay Crisis
« Reply #42 on: June 16, 2002, 09:42:57 PM »
No no no. Captain Kirk went beck in time with his birdofprey and got trigger happy.

Offline SirLoin

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 5707
Invisible Planes First Real AH Gameplay Crisis
« Reply #43 on: June 16, 2002, 09:51:36 PM »
I saw some weirdness the other day.I was rolling for a mission when I noticed one of the other guys showed as a PT boat.It took off from the base and a couple of minutes later it turned into a p38..Don't know if that's related to invisible planes which I have yet to see...
**JOKER'S JOKERS**

Offline CavemanJ

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1008
Invisible Planes First Real AH Gameplay Crisis
« Reply #44 on: June 16, 2002, 11:32:21 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Bullethead
K / D + 1 = 3.8148

103 kills
36 assists
94 sorties
62 landings
5 bails
2 ditches
4 captureds
13 deaths
8 discos

103 kills is unambiguous, so solving for "deaths" (as meant in the K/D formula) we get D = (103 / 3.8148) - 1 = 26

You have 13 actual deaths so we need 13 more fates that the K/D formula treats as deaths.  IIRC from what HTC has said in the past, discos don't count as deaths, so that leaves bails, ditches, and captureds, and I don't think ditches are supposed to count, either.  But in your case, those only add up to 11, not the 13 needed.  In fact, for your there is no combination of non-landed, non-dead fates that equals the requried 13 except discos + bails.

This makes no sense.  Why count bails but not captureds?  Why count discos at all?  Also, if that's how it's really working, it's in contradition to what HTC has said in the past.  So there's obviously a bug in the formula.  In which case, pay no attention to your score page.  I recommend instead looking at your  stats page.  There, you've got 182 kills / 43 deaths = a real K/D of 4.23.


Way I understood it:
disco = .25 death (4disco = 1death)
bailed = 1death, and captured aren't counted cause if ya bailed near an enemy field (and didna get strafed in yer chute) it would be giving you 2 deaths each time ya were shot down and bailed out, then captured cause ya were closer to an enemy base than a friendly one