Author Topic: Erich Hartmann's 109  (Read 2587 times)

Offline AKSWulfe

  • Parolee
  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3812
Erich Hartmann's 109
« Reply #30 on: June 18, 2002, 03:09:03 PM »
Okay, I'll make it simpler for you Hortlund- there was no LuftWaffe prior to the Nazi party and Hitler. There was no German air force. The LuftWaffe was built for the Nazi party.

The Nazi party was a dictatorship- in other words, they were the ONLY party. America has 2 main parties, and regardless of who's in the president's seat... they are still both active in the government.

So, how does that make the airforce a republican air force or democrat air force based on whichever party has their representative in the president's seat?
-SW

Offline Hortlund

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 4690
Erich Hartmann's 109
« Reply #31 on: June 18, 2002, 03:17:23 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by AKSWulfe
Okay, I'll make it simpler for you Hortlund- there was no LuftWaffe prior to the Nazi party and Hitler. There was no German air force. The LuftWaffe was built for the Nazi party.
[/b]
Uh...? Are you actually trying to say that Germany did not have an airforce pre 1934? Or are you hung up on names (i e that the name "Luftwaffe" was not used pre 1934?)

Allow me to challenge you on that, I say that there was a German airforce pre 1934. And I seriously doubt that you can baclk up your fascinating "Luftwaffe was built for the nazi party"-tidbit. The Waffen SS was built for the Nazi party, it was the armed branch of the nazi party. But the nazi party did not have an airforce.
Quote

The Nazi party was a dictatorship- in other words, they were the ONLY party. America has 2 main parties, and regardless of who's in the president's seat... they are still both active in the government.
[/b]
Well, first your definition of dictatorship is off. Second, there were other parties in Germany too. They did not make much use of themselves though, but remember that Hitler drew his power from a parlamentary vote. In that parlament, you had lots of different parties.  
Quote

So, how does that make the airforce a republican air force or democrat air force based on whichever party has their representative in the president's seat?

It doesnt. Because it doesnt matter what party is currently in office. Something that applies to the US today (hence the USAF) and it applied to Germany in 1939 (Hence the German airforce, or Luftwaffe).

Offline AKSWulfe

  • Parolee
  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3812
Erich Hartmann's 109
« Reply #32 on: June 18, 2002, 03:23:34 PM »
There was no air force within Germany after the 1919, the Treaty of Versailles denied Germany use of powered aircraft and an airforce.

So yes, they HAD an air force... but it was disbanded, it wasn't until Hitler was in power that they got another air force... which they named the LuftWaffe.

yeah- Hitler used the parliament to get himself into power... then when he was in power, he WAS the parliament. It was HIS Germany... not a vote of the people, or of people in power, only Hitler mattered. That's a dictatorship.

Because Hitler needed an air force to invade, the LuftWaffe was created... and therefore it was created for the Nazi party because it was created for Hilter- the head Nazi honcho- and the only party in control of Germany during WWII.

You really do come off as a revisionist sometimes Hortlund.
-SW

Offline Furious

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3243
Erich Hartmann's 109
« Reply #33 on: June 18, 2002, 03:27:29 PM »
I'll state again, Charon, that your posts are ridiculous in their content and context.

Nothing you have contributed has anything to do with how admiring LW aircraft or the skill of a LW pilot makes one a nazi sympathizer.

Show me this connection.


F.

Offline Hortlund

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 4690
Erich Hartmann's 109
« Reply #34 on: June 18, 2002, 03:38:34 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by AKSWulfe
yeah- Hitler used the parliament to get himself into power... then when he was in power, he WAS the parliament. It was HIS Germany... not a vote of the people, or of people in power, only Hitler mattered. That's a dictatorship.
[/b]
Actually no, it isnt. Not only because you are way off in your description on how Hitler came to power, but also because you are way off in your description on how Germany worked after Hitler came to power.

You should actually read about it sometime, it is kinda interesting. Let me just say this, on paper, and in theory, Germany was still a Democracy in 1945. What happened was that age old problem What happens when a democracy chooses to disband itself.
Quote

Because Hitler needed an air force to invade, the LuftWaffe was created... and therefore it was created for the Nazi party because it was created for Hilter- the head Nazi honcho- and the only party in control of Germany during WWII.
[/b]
Your logic is flawed because the conclusion you are trying to make is not supported by the underlying arguments.

Hint:
The Luftwaffe might have been created on orders from Hitler, but that does not logically lead to the conclusion that it was created for Hitler. Just as the A-bomb was not created for Roosevelt. Even though Roosevelt was the head Democratic-party honcho -and the democrats were the only party in control of the USA during WWII.
Quote

You really do come off as a revisionist sometimes Hortlund.

Yeah, well I have never heard that one before.

Apparently it happens alot if someone dares to point out that not all Germans were nazis. Just out of curiosity, where is the revisionism here? Is it my outrageous statement that the Luftwaffe was the German airforce and not the airforce of the nazi party? is it my implication that not all Germans were nazis? Or is it my pointing out that Hitler was elected?

Offline funkedup

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 9466
      • http://www.raf303.org/
Erich Hartmann's 109
« Reply #35 on: June 18, 2002, 03:43:09 PM »
Nazi is as Nazi does.

If one took orders from Hitler and fought in an airplane and uniform adorned with Nazi symbols, one shouldn't complain about being called a Nazi.

It's really remarkable how the number of Nazis in Germany decreased 100% on May 8, 1945.
« Last Edit: June 18, 2002, 03:49:09 PM by funkedup »

Offline AKSWulfe

  • Parolee
  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3812
Erich Hartmann's 109
« Reply #36 on: June 18, 2002, 03:46:26 PM »
Well no, I knew Hitler was elected. Nothing new there. If it was a democratic party, why was everyone below Hitler afraid of him? Did everything for him?

Whether you choose to accept it or not, Hitler was THE MAN in charge. I guess to you, a democracy is one person in charge with subordinates giving the illusion that they have some power. Based around this, Iraq is a democracy too.

I dunno what books you got up there in Sweden, but I think they might have been written in Germany during WWII.

The LuftWaffe was created when the Nazi party- ie: Hitler- came into power. It was built to defend Nazi Germany, while the A-Bomb was a side experiment (much like the Horten 229, it was not a Nazi plane, but it was built to defend the Nazis).

Have I ever said all Germans were Nazis? Eh, no. That's something you concocted in your head.

Your revisionism is that you are saying that "oooo while Germany didn't have an airforce because they weren't allowed to, they went ahead and created one AFTER Hitler and the Nazi party controlled Germany- but they weren't for the Nazi party... but because Germany needed some defense.... " in DIRECT VIOLATION OF A TREATY!

So again, I KNOW Hitler was elected into power... but after he was in power, he was THE power. Not this dillusional "democracy" you have invented.
-SW

Offline Charon

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3705
Erich Hartmann's 109
« Reply #37 on: June 18, 2002, 03:51:46 PM »
Quote
I'll state again, Charon, that your posts are ridiculous in their content and context. Nothing you have contributed has anything to do with how admiring LW aircraft or the skill of a LW pilot makes one a nazi sympathizer.

Show me this connection.


Furious


Show me where I said that, anywhere in this or the other three threads I bumped up (you might actually want to read through them even), and your posts may seem a bit less ridiculous. Similarly, show me where I said ALL Germans were Nazis [edit: as you do earlier in this thread]. And, if you can tell me what "The White Rose"  was without clicking on this link, then I'll think you've read more about history than the LW fanboi books (and I like to read them too). These are real German heroes.

I like to role play, and I don't think there's anything wrong with that IMO. Who could play a desert wargame or eastern front wargame and not be the Germans? I like Silent Hunter a lot, and played through Panzer Commander German campaigns first. However, I have no deep, overriding sentimentality for the German war machine, nor do I believe you can cleanly separate the actions of Nazi Germany from its people or military. As I’ve posted before, I don't connect the actions of the Nazi era with Germans today, and feel Germany has done a solid job dealing with its past, perhaps better than America has done with some of its less desirable legacies.


Quote
Charon...why would any German see the western allies as a "liberator"? Where is the logic in that?


Hortlund, that statement comes from the reactions of the Italians, who did treat the allies as liberators in many (but not all areas). Now, I can see three reasons for this:

1. They realized that the promises of fascism turned out to be lies that caused massive destruction and loss (all the way back to the Spanish Civil War) and that they were happy to see fascism overthrown. Some were happy to become partisans and even established an organized military opposition. They gave Mussolini and his hoochee a pretty tough time when they caught him.

2. They were cowardly people who changed loyalties when the tide of the war changed (though, as I pointed out earlier, some did take up arms against the Germans and the loyalists).

3. They had no deep connection with Fascism from the beginning, making either 1 or 2 easier.

I believe it was a combination of points 1 and 3.


Charon
« Last Edit: June 18, 2002, 04:11:47 PM by Charon »

Offline Charon

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3705
Erich Hartmann's 109
« Reply #38 on: June 18, 2002, 04:03:15 PM »
BTW, if we want to continue this, wouldn't one of the three old threads (or a new one) be more appropriate in the O'club? Please pick an old one since I don't want to rehash stuff I spent far too much theoretically "productive" time developing in the first place :)

Charon

Offline Hortlund

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 4690
Erich Hartmann's 109
« Reply #39 on: June 18, 2002, 04:13:31 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Charon
BTW, if we want to continue this, wouldn't one of the three old threads (or a new one) be more appropriate in the O'club? Please pick an old one since I don't want to rehash stuff I spent far too much theoretically "productive" time developing in the first place :)

Charon


Check the Nazis or just missunderstood thread.

Offline Furious

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3243
Erich Hartmann's 109
« Reply #40 on: June 18, 2002, 04:25:01 PM »
The conversation that this series of posts as played in my mind had primarily to do with whether an enjoyment of LW iron made one a nazi sympathizer.

As a former member of a "virtual" LW squad and a fan of LW iron, I am incensed by this implication.

However, after rereading the entire post, I see that prior to your post the discussion had turned into something else.

BTW, I did read in their entirety the posts you bumped.  And no, I do not know anything of the "white rose",...yet.  



I think what most people forget in these sterile BBS discussions, is the ease with which good people can be persuaded to do bad things.  That is the real lesson here.  Its not that "we" and good and "they" are evil.  Its that "we" are good, but capable of evil.

The brushes being used are far to broad.


F.

Offline midnight Target

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 15114
Erich Hartmann's 109
« Reply #41 on: June 18, 2002, 04:56:29 PM »
Germany was a democracy in 1945?

So when Hitler gutted the constitution of the Weimar Republic, he was still just running a "democracy"?

Quote
Hitler wanted to transfer all legislative power of the Reichstag to himself, but any change in the Constitution required a two-thirds majority in the Reichstag before they could become effective. Thus Hitler arrested or excluded 81 Communist deputies, and bribed the Nationalist Party and the Centre Party. As a result, in March, the Nazis outvoted the Social Democrats by 444 to 94 over the Enabling Bill which gave Hitler unlimited power. From now on, Hitler could draft and pass any laws without the Reichstag. The German Constitution was destroyed.

Hitler lost no time to consolidate his position. The Law of Reconstruction of the Reich (January 1934) abolished the state legislatures and subordinated them to the central government at Berlin. The Trade Union offices were raided by the S.A. and S.S. troops. Thus the Communist base of support was destroyed. On July 14, 1933, all political parties except the Nazi Party were declared illegal.


Kinda makes your point "The Luftwaffe might have been created on orders from Hitler, but that does not logically lead to the conclusion that it was created for Hitler. Just as the A-bomb was not created for Roosevelt. Even though Roosevelt was the head Democratic-party honcho -and the democrats were the only party in control of the USA during WWII. " seem silly.

I don't see any way you can correlate the NAZI party to the Democrats, unless the Dems declared the GOP illegal. As much as that might be a good thing, it couldn't and didn't happen. Germany was a totalitarian dictatorship from 1933 on.

Offline metronom

  • Copper Member
  • **
  • Posts: 132
Erich Hartmann's 109
« Reply #42 on: June 18, 2002, 05:44:41 PM »
What Charon said goes much deeper then this ole LW fan boy club. To understand Nazi Germany it is not enough to read popular books over 39-45.
Yes, the Germans are polite and correct, love children and little Animals. Their donations in Music,Science and Literature are  some of the best in Mankind.  But  they also used Cyclone B in the Gas chambers.
And about "Happines of liberation" by the western allies. The Germans where just happy that the Yanks and Tommies where faster then the Russians (at least a part of Germany) No wonder after some "activities" of the Wehrmacht and WaffenSS in the east.
And even the Austrians declare still themselves as the first victims of the Nazi Germany, forgettin that over 95% voted for the "Anschluss"
Also for dealing with the own history are 60 years for dispence not enough. Maybe 600?

metro

Offline Glasses

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1811
Erich Hartmann's 109
« Reply #43 on: June 18, 2002, 05:48:31 PM »
Hortlund couldn't be any more precise. Looking from a far  is sure to judge others and condemn them for their mistakes and forget your own.

I'll tell you a little story I guess you knew but the rise of Hitler was mainly due to the Illegal treaty of Versailles imposed by the allies at the end  of WW1,even though  President Wilson tried not to iput such terms, blaming Germany for starting WWI and stripping it of everything.  Germany was just defending her allies and sovereign territory in Europe. This caused major civil unrest and caused economic helplessness that lasted until  the early 1930s while other countries enjoyed  economic security throughout the 20s, and would have had Germany paying war reparations until the 1990s.

It effectively destroyed their pride, their faith in government, democratic government (ironic isn't it) which lead it  and its people to take a radical action like  putting someone like Hitler in power.

The Germans  are very proud people and even though many have not been Nazis or belonged to the party they saw what this man did to their country in the early stages of his reign . He delivered on what he said he would do, this turned many non believers into  people who turned 180 around and started  to believe, some even might as well be fanatical about it.

The military service was part of this the National pride many felt and the call to arms to make powerful this rebuilt nation  and people from all over came to join. Why? it wasn't 100% because of this guy it was because they were caught in the jubilee of seeing their country was again being a powerful proud nation, a shadow of what it was after WWI and the following decade.  

To put this in context so the Amis can understand... because Sept 11 happened many joined the different armed forces because they felt patriotic. GWB also encouraged people to join and serve their country  in other different ways sure it isn't the exact same way,  but it will give you an idea of what was happening at that time and what their mindset was.

Most everyone saw  good  in this, why? For the same reasons above. The normal German citizen didn't know what was happening in their own backyard, same as the Americans don't know WTH goes on in Area 51, even worse this is made because in that country there was not a form of free press which they could communicate freely and some  would want like today to forgo some basic rights for basic order and security which this regime offered at the time.

As to the idiotic remark as why weren't they  treated as liberators,
Simply because these same people destroyed many of their homes killed many of their children(note children in bombing raids) and  destroyed frankly their livelihood .   Secondly it was a foreign nation entering their own soil. It would have been as if  when the Civil war exploded in the US, Britain came and invaded the US to resolve the problem by attacking both sides to come to a resolution to their civil war. Another example look what happened in Britain when the Germans and Brits started to exchange bombs over their own capital cities the people's morale strengthened and their resolve grew out of defiance(both the Brits and Germans).  Even though they were under a tyrant ruler no nation wants to get invaded by another. In the case of the French yes the Americans liberated France by pushing the Germans out,  in the case of Germany it was occupied and invaded by a another nation (raped if you count what the Russian regular infantry soldiers did in eastern Germany  to young girls).


Can I say the Heer did not commit attrocities during the war no, nor can any other nation during  WW2  they mostl likely  did but like it has been said by some of you above it is "justifiable" "they were all Evil so they had to die, the were all Nazis."

Last but not least the Luftwaffe was part of the rebuilding of the country its name has always been Luftwaffe now it did grow during the regime as with all of the military expansion done during this time, again like what another president did during the 80's Reagan  to the American armed forces. It indeed was part of the Nazi Regime War machine but the Luftwaffe pilot officers  and the enlisted personnel for the most mart were not Nazis they fought for their country and their fellow man. Like today you have many  Military people that don't necessarily agree with the person at the helm of the government but they do their job anyway the whole angle of you have to fight that hard because you have to believe in   your government is nothing but bull. They fought hard so their country  was not invaded, not ravaged, not destroyed like they feared no country as bad as their leader might be would like to get invaded specially as proud as the German were/are simple as that. This country today looks back at that time in shame  mainly because their country was burned down to the ground and their proud nation  was destroyed, they felt and still feel betrayed of the lost war.


But once again victors write the History and have excuses for everything they have done.  Call it revisionist  if you may, the truth they have been taught is not the truth they have researched themselves .  That come from the same propaghanda that came during the war and many Myths that  still prevail today(in some aircraft for example).

Offline illo

  • Nickel Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 374
Erich Hartmann's 109
« Reply #44 on: June 18, 2002, 05:57:58 PM »

Yes nice little plane with nice little 30mm. :)

Bf 109g-6/AS soon? :D