Author Topic: Erich Hartmann's 109 (Read 2590 times)

Viper17 · « **Reply #90 on:** June 20, 2002, 06:32:30 PM »

This was a HIJACK. And I am sorry I started it all with saying that I am not a Nazi. If I must I will move this to the O Club. Because that is where it belongs.

Bluedog · « **Reply #91 on:** June 20, 2002, 07:56:17 PM »

Just out of curiosity......does the fact that I am a member of a virtual Luftwaffe squad, and I have a prefferance for German A/C, in your eyes make me a Nazi sympathiser, hater of jews and coloured folk, and a bad person? If yes, then I say you are wrong....if no, then what is all the argueing about?
Wether or not the members of the wartime Luftwaffe were dedicated Nazis or not is irrelevant , yes, Karaya 1 is a fine looking aircraft ( it's a G6 BTW, not a G10 as someone mentioned)
and the bloke who flew it, Erich Harttman, was indeed a far above 'average' pilot.
Personally, I admire the man for his ability and exploits as a fighter pilot, his political beliefs are unimportant, I like to fly the digital representation of his aircraft in AH, because I like the way it handles/ flys, not because it fought for the nazi cause in real life.

War is hell folks, NO side, in ANY conflict is completely innocent of war crimes, just some are more widely known than others.
In my opinion, war itself is pretty much a crime against humanity, no matter what cause you are fighting for/against, yet I myself would fight at a moments notice were my country/family/livelihood threatened, and I wouldnt give two hoots who was running the country at the time, nor what their political position was, so long as they allowed me to fight to defend what I consider to be mine.

Nazi or not, Erich Harttman was one of the most skilled individuals to ever strap an aircraft to his butt, for that, he has my admiration.
If that makes me a Nazi sympathiser, then I guess I really should inform my Aboriginal mates , the Asian family over the street and the Jewish bloke I chat to every day at work huh?.

~~Blue~~

Wilbus · « **Reply #92 on:** June 20, 2002, 08:26:52 PM »

Why do you need to know if Hortlund is from Sweden?

Jack55 · « **Reply #93 on:** June 20, 2002, 08:49:13 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by Hortlund

No, in the USAF those go in the cockpit.

Nazi military was very dependant on draft animals for transportation. Based on the revelation of Hortland the great, and the performance of the USAF, the Nazis should have unhitched the donkeys and put them in leather to fight for Adolf.

I guess jack and jenny would not be deserving of the Nazi ovens?

Pongo · « **Reply #94 on:** June 20, 2002, 11:32:55 PM »

I guess we chalk this one up to not really wanting to let this drop eh guys....
ok..

Bluedog. I agree with your entire first paragraph.

But where was the threat to the people of Germany in 1938? It was not in the people of its neiboring counties..it was in there own head of state. They chose not to do as you say you would and rise up and fight that threat. They chose to participate in the attempted enslavement of the world. That it predictably did not go well for them and they ended up on the defensive doesnt mean the war was a defensive war for the Germans, validating the " I was just defending my family" excuse for participation.
They started the thing. If they all had stayed home and worried about their families instead of putting the jack boot to anyone they could get at..that war would not have happend. Maybe another one would have. So for that I call them all Nazis.
That includes the Blond Knight.

whgates3 · « **Reply #95 on:** June 21, 2002, 02:55:28 AM »

there is a cool hartmann story at http://www.virtualpilots.fi/en/hist/WW2History-ErichHartmann.html
(last third of page)
any hartmann paint scheme should have the appropriate "tail number"

Hortlund · « **Reply #96 on:** June 21, 2002, 06:22:17 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by Pongo
If swapping ideas means re writting the history of Germany and the German military for the years 1930-46 then I am not interested in swapping ideas.
If you cant accept that the German military did indeed set out to deprive any one they could get thier hands on of their freedom and or lives then you have taken open mindedness a bit far. If you dont understand that the German military(all arms) was populated by Germans that are responsible for thier own actions and inactions then we dont have common ground to discuss.
At the time of thier attempt at global enslavement they called themselves Nazis. So I call them. The ones that participated in the war will always be subject to that name. Their fault. their shame.
More current generations of Germans of course are not nazis. Unless they try to rewrite the history or what happend. then whaterver thier nationality..I consider them Nazis...

The free speech that the allied soldiers died for does not mean that you cant be ridiculed for your opinions.

The fundimental issue here is that German soldiers were nazis. Even if they didnt carry a nazi card..they where fighting for the nazi way of life.
They were nazis.
No matter the branch of service.

OK, I have been trying really hard to refrain from namecalling. I dunno if I have been particualry successful or not, but I have tried. Be that as it may, some people really deserve being called names. One of those is Pongo.

Pongo you post lies (There was no town in Germany that was more then 4 km from some kind of detenion camp or work camp.)

You post insults (If only Hortland was a persuasive as his hero Adolf Hitler.)

You post more lies (Adolf was elected without pointing out that he murdered his opponents and terrorized those who could stop him.)

And more insults (...does make a person a Nazi. That is what you are doing.)

Go back and read your own posts, you wont find anyting in them but insults, statements without support in facts, prejudices and wwii-era propaganda.

Apparently you have moved me up a notch too, from "revisionist" to "nazi".

I'm getting tired of this Pongo. Apparently you are not capable of coherent thought, neither do you seem capable of backing up your statements with facts. In fact, the only thing you seem capable of is posting lies and insults.

When one looks at the way you are arguing, and what kind of statements you use to make your points, it is quite easy to get the impression that you are on the mental level of a 13-yrold.

Well, I have had enough of your insults. And since you dont have anyting intelligent or constructive to say, I see little point in continuing to argue with you.

You are so outrageously stupid, and the sad part about it is that you probably dont even recognize this fact yourself. There is a big hole in your knowledge, and you dont even seem to care about it. That hole where the knowledge was supposed to be, has been filled by someone or something with hate, propaganda and distortions. When you say that every german soldier in wwii was a nazi, that tells all of us reading this board that either you dont understand what a nazi is, or that you are incapable of coherent thought.

You talk about re-writing 1933-1945 history, but you have no idea what that history is. You talk about me being a revisionist, but you fail to realize that the revisionist in this conversation is you. So you are right. We dont have a common ground to discuss, because you dont have the IQ it takes to conversate about this. All you have is hate.

I hope someday you will stumble over a book or something that might upgrade your intelligence a couple of nothces. Good luck on that task.

I'm through talking to you. Consider yourself squelched.

Pongo · « **Reply #97 on:** June 21, 2002, 10:23:18 AM »

Hortland
But what your doing..revising the history of the Nazi era in Germany. deserves insulting.
You were told which camp was close to the town you named...

modifying the intent or effect of the terror the Gemans inflicted on europe does make you a nazi sypathizer.

The only response to such things is aggressive counter attack.
You want to change the history your forfathers inflicted on the world. I chose to protect the truth. That my forfathers stopped yours from enslaving the world.

the truth..
that Sweden sold high quality steel to the nazis for the gold from Jewish teeth.

The truth. That that war was started by the germans for the germans. The germans that participated in furthering the Nazi domination of the world...are of course nazis..

You say you dont like insults..what you dont like is the truth. Lets "grey" up the truth a little till all the combants are the same moraly..
Till Germany had no choice but to wage that war.
Till the LW pilots didnt know what kind of regime they were trying to inflict on the world...

You dont want the truth hortland....thats why your so worthy of insult. Because the lies you are trying to propogate are very dangerous. No matter how calmly you state them. They are not resonable and do not deserve reasonable discorse. I would not calmly debate with you whether the holocaust happend either.

Wilbus · « **Reply #98 on:** June 21, 2002, 10:31:01 AM »

Then again, Sweden we're the first in to help anslaves people after the war. no maintain neutraility it's necissary to be nicer to the winning country, which is also the reason Sweden was nicer to the allies during the second part.

Pongo, insults is only the last way to try and defend your self when you've run out of options to continue an intelligent discussion. If one can't discuss without insulting then one has no buisiness discussing at all.

Hortlund · « **Reply #99 on:** June 21, 2002, 11:22:34 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by Pongo
Hortland
But what your doing..revising the history of the Nazi era in Germany. deserves insulting.
You were told which camp was close to the town you named...

[/b]
First, I am not revising the history of the nazi era. If you honestly believe that I am doing that, please, PLEASE just tell me what I have said that you feel is revising history. Please do that instead of just insult me again.

Second, I have not been told what camp "was close to the town" I named (and I also note the drop of the "within 4 kilometers" part) What Nashwan said about Dachau was a joke (at least that's what I'm assuming.) So Im still waiting for the name of the camp within 4 kms from Garmisch-Partenkirchen (and no, you dont need to look for it, because there were no such camp).

Quote

modifying the intent or effect of the terror the Gemans inflicted on europe does make you a nazi sypathizer.

[/b]
Where have I done that? Please post a quote of me where Im trying to modify the intent or effect of what Germany did in Europe.

Did you see my post where I said that the nazis was directly responsible for over 20 000 000 civilian deaths in the 1933-1945 time period? If I was a nazi sympathizer, why would I post that? Shouldnt I instead try to ignore that fact, or explain it away somehow?

Quote

The only response to such things is aggressive counter attack.
You want to change the history your forfathers inflicted on the world. I chose to protect the truth. That my forfathers stopped yours from enslaving the world.

[/b]
This is just plain silly. Im not really sure what you think you are protecting, but whatever it is, its pretty damn far from "the truth".

I did note the "agressive counterattack" though...

Quote

the truth..
that Sweden sold high quality steel to the nazis for the gold from Jewish teeth.

[/b]
Well, to be fair, we did get payment in gold bars and not in bags of teeth.

Quote

The truth. That that war was started by the germans for the germans. The germans that participated in furthering the Nazi domination of the world...are of course nazis..

[/b]
This is where you are wrong, whether you want to realize that. Both morally speaking, but also on a strictly logical level. A person fighting for country A which is ruled by party B is not neccesarily fighting for party B. The logic does not add up. Person As actions may benefit party B, but that is not the same thing.

Quote

You say you dont like insults..what you dont like is the truth.

[/b]
Again, please show me a quote by me where I have said anything that is not true.

Quote

Lets "grey" up the truth a little till all the combants are the same moraly..

[/b]
And here it is, the core of your views. The reason you insult me so much and accuse me of so many things. In your world, all Germans are black, all allies are white. Everything the Germans did in wwii is a black henious crime, and everything the allies did is a white wonderful act of heroism.

Some day you will grow to understand that the world is not that simple. Let me give one example. Have you ever heard of the Lanconia incident? A german submarine torpedoed a troop ship outside Gibraltar. Lots of people went into the water, and the German sub commander (a black evil nazi by your standards) wanted to try to save as many as possible. He surfaced his boat, and brodcasted on open radio "this is german submarine so and so, I am at position x on the surface towing several lifeboats. I will not attack any allied ship who come here to assist me in salvaging the survivors." The German submarine set a cource for the nearest land, with hundreds of survivors on the deck, and with several lifeboats crowded with survivors in tow. The allies intercepted the radio transmission, and soon an american B25 bomber arrived and started to bomb and strafe the German submarine, trying to sink it. Despite the fact that the german submarine had put up red crosses clearly visible, and it was crowded with survivors (axis and allied survivors mind you).

In your narrowminded world, the above should be an example of the blackness of the evil nazis, and the heroism of the heroic allies. But someday, hopefully, you will understand that the world is not all black or all white.

Quote

Till Germany had no choice but to wage that war.
Till the LW pilots didnt know what kind of regime they were trying to inflict on the world...

[/b]
Now would be a good time for you to post any proof you have that LW pilots knew about the holocaust.

Quote

You dont want the truth hortland....thats why your so worthy of insult. Because the lies you are trying to propogate are very dangerous. No matter how calmly you state them. They are not resonable and do not deserve reasonable discorse. I would not calmly debate with you whether the holocaust happend either.

Again, what lies. If you can accuse me of lying, you can damn well provide the quotes for that. Where have I lied?

As for the rest, well, you do seem incapable of calm debate that much is true. But you have to realize that the person worthy of insult in this conversation is you, not me.

Boroda · « **Reply #100 on:** June 21, 2002, 01:10:38 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by AKSWulfe
The 1938-1945 LuftWaffe was built up and funded by the Nazi party. Makes 'em a Nazi airforce, don't it?

Same with the VVS of the same era, they were- well first they were purged- then they were built up and funded by the Communist party.

It is not true.

BTW, I still want someone to explain what is so wrong with communist party. Is McCarthy still alive and working for the white house?

Hortlund- things change when you are sovereignty is threatened by a nation that performs a sneak attack on a nation not involved in any European conflict at that time.
-SW [/QUOTE]

Well said. And that country has openly stated that the purpose of the agression is physical elimination of 90% of your country's population. Looks like Hortlund thinks that it's just "commie propaganda". It's always fun to talk to illiterates.

Boroda · « **Reply #101 on:** June 21, 2002, 01:30:14 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by funkedup
Nazi is as Nazi does.

If one took orders from Hitler and fought in an airplane and uniform adorned with Nazi symbols, one shouldn't complain about being called a Nazi.

It's really remarkable how the number of Nazis in Germany decreased 100% on May 8, 1945.

Thanks, Funked. Well said.

What wonders me is that so many people are so ignorant and never learn, as if they are immune from any agression in case their beloved "fighters with communism" will raise their heads again.

Boroda · « **Reply #102 on:** June 21, 2002, 02:00:26 PM »

Secondly it was a foreign nation entering their own soil. It would have been as if when the Civil war exploded in the US, Britain came and invaded the US to resolve the problem by attacking both sides to come to a resolution to their civil war.

WHAT!? Glasses, are you nuts?! Or is it what you are told on TV and comic books?

I wonder why do I have to read all this ignorant crap...

Nath[BDP] · « **Reply #103 on:** June 21, 2002, 02:03:52 PM »

Listen, personal thought is sacred--but when you go out of your way in public to make excuses, and/or try to seperate the Luftwaffe from the Nazi regime, people are going to think you have a soft side for WWII Germany; its true, and its also true that you can't ever extenuate the non-Nazi LW ideology enough to finally convince people who are obstinate on the view that everything German during the war perpetuated the evil that Nazi German epitomized.

The fact is that Germany was the country responsible for starting the war in Europe, it was a costly affair to finally defeat them. Sure the Allies used tactics that were equivalent to what the Germans & Japs did (bombing civilians), but the difference is that the latter two countries were the agressors, they were doing it for no other reason besides expansion and domination of peaceful nations. The Allies were there to put an end to the militant regimes--to restore peace.

To me, there's no positive outcome to argue over whether or not the Luftwaffe "was a Nazi air force" or not--because I like debates where there can be a definate conclusion. With this, it's like arguing over whether a certain sports team would have been more successful than another if a certain player or coach had joined, rather than the competition. It's filled with all assumptions and ideology. It's either one extreme or the other. The Luftwaffe was a Nazi air force, or it was a completely antiseptic from the Nazis and was there to defend Germany against its self-effectuated enemies.

Try to look inbetween the extremes, and you will realize that overall, the LW was a bit of both.

Boroda · « **Reply #104 on:** June 21, 2002, 02:07:01 PM »

As I said, what happened in Germany was a democracy that chose to disband itself.

So, thinking this way, we had 100% working democracy here in USSR all the time.

Hortlund, you continue to surprise me.