Author Topic: 10bears - my response  (Read 1102 times)

Offline Midnight

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10bears - my response
« on: June 21, 2002, 11:42:54 PM »


Seeing as how you didn't stick around long enough to chat, here is my response to your comments, 10bears

This was frame three of a TOD where the basic principal was the same for all three frames. B17s fly into Germany and bomb stuff and then go home. Allied fighters try to keep the bombers alive, Axis fighters try to shoot the bombers down. Simple.

I realize my orders came late, but by no means was there lack of planning. The plans sent were simple and straight forward. Nothing elaborate, nothing that any CO who has already been in frames 1 and 2 should not have been able to handle.

One of the first things I asked on Channel 2 when I got into the area was if any Allied CO had questions. No one asked me any questions, including you, 10bears. <-- So I must assume then that you got the orders and understood them.

This Frame was no different than any other, and had it's share of warps, lags and missing icons/planes. <-- This is beyond my control. I ordered a two minute staggger on launch and gave instructions for where the flight groups were supposed to fly in order to try and avoid the 32 plane limit.

All bombers were restricted to 25K maximum altitude. All fighters could go as high as they wanted. Very early in the frame, B17s were attacked by 30K Me-262s and 109-G10s, both of which were armed with 30mm cannons. <-- we all know how fast 30mm cannons can put down bombers in AH damage model. Too fast IMO.

Allied turn out was not as good as previous frames, and it seemed the LW had better numbers than before. <-- Nothing I could have done to change this.

Lastly, even the best laid plans are useless if they are not followed and executed by skilled people. We have many skilled players in AH, but bottom line, not many ever fly coordinated formations. How many tightly grouped bomber boxes did you see this TOD? I saw many B17s flying in close proxcimity to one another, but maybe only saw 2 or 3 coordinated bomber boxes, which are the best defensive formation for B17s.

So, in summary, your comments to me that poor planning caused you to loose all your bombers is inaccurate and poorly placed. And for you to call me a 'fool' just prior to logging off shows yourself as a person of poor character, or someeone who acts as a small child that likes to make wise cracks as they are running away.

I have already stated that I am sorry for the delay in sending out my orders and have already asked that I not CO a TOD frame for a little while. Maybe next time, I can be as good as you and lead us all to victory.

Come to think of it, I don't recall you being CO of any frames yet. I would try to look it up, but the Events site is down right now.

Midnight - CO
412th FS "Braunco Mustangs"
« Last Edit: June 21, 2002, 11:54:53 PM by Midnight »

Offline Steven

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10bears - my response
« Reply #1 on: June 21, 2002, 11:57:33 PM »
Man, Midnight.  I'm sorry to see someone venting on you like that.  It's just a game.

Offline dtango

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10bears - my response
« Reply #2 on: June 22, 2002, 12:47:10 AM »
10Bears:

That was really uncalled for.  A different plan would not have averted what transpired.

[list=1]
  • the LW had radar.
  • The numbers were pretty lopsided:

Totals: Allies 77, LW 92
Of the 77 allied planes
~30-40 were bombers
~30+ were fighters
It was remarkable enough that 40-50 LW planes got shot down to 60 allied planes downed considering the odds and plane types.  In fighters we were outnumbered 3-to-1.
[/list]

Tango, XO
412th FS Braunco Mustangs
Tango / Tango412 412th FS Braunco Mustangs
"At times it seems like people think they can chuck bunch of anecdotes into some converter which comes up with the flight model." (Wmaker)

Offline Esme

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10bears - my response
« Reply #3 on: June 22, 2002, 01:03:53 AM »
With numbers like that, I'm astounded anyone Allied-side survived!  In similar scenarios flown in WB, the numbers were picked to ensure a superior number of Allied fighters to LW fighters, then with the Allied bomber units as well...
-and the LW still managed, every now and then, to rip at least one bomber formation apart (whilst 2-3 others, sadly, got through reasonably unmolested).

Esme

Offline Raubvogel

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10bears - my response
« Reply #4 on: June 22, 2002, 01:09:53 AM »
astounded that anyone Allied survived? LOL I'd rather be in a B17 gunner position than a 262 cockpit. Lag works wonders on  attacking fighters.

Offline Wotan

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10bears - my response
« Reply #5 on: June 22, 2002, 01:18:15 AM »
Same Raub,

Look at death due to b17 guns and not all 90 lw engage at once.

we had 20 g10s 20 g2s attack the initial radar contact. By the time the 6 out of the 8 262s entered the battle there wasnt a 51 to be found.

The last 30 lw didnt commit to the battle till the very end.

Was great fun

Offline ghostdancer

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10bears - my response
« Reply #6 on: June 22, 2002, 01:38:38 AM »
I just created an excel spreadsheet report for skernsk:

  • LW launched 99 planes
  • Allied launch 79 planes (38 B17s and 41 P51Ds)
  • Allies had 2 pure gunners, never launched a plane
  • Allied lost 28 B17s to enemy fire - 74%
  • Allied lost 32 P51s to enemy fire - 78%
  • Combine losses of 60 planes to enemy fire - 76%
  • LW loss 37 planes to enemy fire - 37%
  • No bombs dropped, no buildings scrafed

X.O. 29th TFT, "We Move Mountains"
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Offline ghostdancer

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10bears - my response
« Reply #7 on: June 22, 2002, 01:40:34 AM »
Wotan,

LW actually fielded 23 109-G10s and actually fielded 9 me262s.
X.O. 29th TFT, "We Move Mountains"
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Offline funkedup

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10bears - my response
« Reply #8 on: June 22, 2002, 01:44:49 AM »
Well I had a blast dodging 109s.  
Call it Black Friday.
Sometimes you get the bear, sometimes the bear gets you!

Offline Wotan

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10bears - my response
« Reply #9 on: June 22, 2002, 02:07:20 AM »
9 262s? nope some guys were late when they arrived we had 2 guys in 262s on the runway they .efluffied and got g10s.

wulfie
jenga

leitwolf
moot

Heinkel
Cmorris

Kratzer
Raub

Drunky and I were in 262s otr at roll because 2 guys who were to be in them  were having connect problems. We waited otr until to see if they could get it fixed. They came back said they were ready so Drunky and I exited the 262s and got g10s.

They were discoed several more times. They had no kills or even engaged the nme at any point. Their connections problems plagued them throughout the entire frame.  Apparently these guy were having router problems. Each time they were discoed they requested and recieved permission to reup.

8 262s rolled

AKs had 20 g10s

The remaining 3 3./JG2 had upped g10s after recieving an email from skernsk stating that g10 could be assigned to 1 large squad (aks) AND 1 small (3 guys from 3./jg2)

We only ever had 6 262s (2 were totally incapacitated due to connection woes) engage the enemy and 20 (aks) engage the inititial radar contact as I stated above in the other post. We also had 6 g2s from 880 and 10 g2s from Nighthawks meet these same contacts.

By the the time the 6 262s arrived (they arrived in pairs over a 15 min period not at once) there wasnt a 51 to be found. Sometime later I called in the Damned and Shills totaling another 20-30 g2s. I held the 332nd, SBMS and Groverats just west of Berlin. I called them in with less then an hour to go to finish off the the buffs.

Repeat wulfie was in contact with the CMs before him and his wingman rolled after each disco. They shared a router and it gave them a terrible time.

All plane assignments and orders reflected the rules of the event

Edit

Allied lost 32 P51s to enemy fire

well the initial engagement to start this event was 20 g10s 16 g2s

32 vrs 36 hardly overwhelming axis superiority. Half the axis were in g2s :)

« Last Edit: June 22, 2002, 02:20:09 AM by Wotan »

Offline 10Bears

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10bears - my response
« Reply #10 on: June 22, 2002, 03:17:12 AM »
First of all Midnight did you notice that was in white text not an open channel?.. It's very rare I have to have "words" with another player but if I have to I do it on privite as to not embarrass  that person. What you did is the same as posting privite email.

Had you spent a little more time planning, you would've realized that drawing a stright line across Germany crossing 5 major cities would be foolish.

Had you not been AWOL and sent the orders in a timely mannor, we might've found out how many jets they planned to sortie we couldn've pitched a squeak. Also, Had you not been AWOL, more allied pilots wouldn've shown up. Many didn't because maybe they thought the event was cancled.

Now what's your excuse? Real life matters?... I can understand that but what I don't understand is how you can't find time in an entire week to send at least a little note to someone.. anyone describing your situation.

No my friend, this MASSIVE LOSS is your responsability and yours alone.

1) I don't like you making public privite messages when my email address is available

2) I don't like you trying to deflect responsability when you know damn well it's your fault.

Please don't come back here and start some kind of flame war with me.. that would be unfortunate  Just take your lumps and go on with life. There are reasons why I can't get involved in a flame war at this time, but I suggest two good books.. Aircraft Combat Manouvers and the Art of War... read em and re-read em. Find out how you can use stealth and surprise to defeat your enmey.

I was just starting to settle down and relax in the main when someone mentioned I should check the bbs... Now you got me all worked up again.

(email addr is in sig)

Offline Vulcan

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Re: 10bears - my response
« Reply #11 on: June 22, 2002, 06:31:47 AM »
I disagree, I think feeding people the same role 3 times in a row bored a few (ie - B17s for all 3 frames). Now I was lucky enough (thanks to my Co.) to be given a pony to fly. Although I did turn up expecting to be stuck in a 17 again. But there was another 10 guys in my squad who weren't so privileged and had their 3rd round.

I thought the idea was to mix the roles throughout the frame?


Quote
Originally posted by Midnight
Allied turn out was not as good as previous frames, and it seemed the LW had better numbers than before. <-- Nothing I could have done to change this.

Offline snafu

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10bears - my response
« Reply #12 on: June 22, 2002, 06:40:55 AM »
Regardless of who is right and who is wrong I think bringing a "private" transmission to the boards in this way is not the right way to settle this. :(

TTFN
snafu

Offline skernsk

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10bears - my response
« Reply #13 on: June 22, 2002, 06:43:41 AM »
Well, I'll start with Vulcan on the plane issue.  The TOD was one where there was very little choice for the Allies.  I am not sure why you guys would have to fly B17's for all three frames.  You guys could have contacted the Frame CO or posted here and said that you paid your dues in the bombers and request fighters this frame.  I'm sure the Frame CO would try and arrange that.

As for the numbers.  We usually see a drop in the Axis numbers by frame 3.  I am certian that this is the first TOD where the Axis outnumbered the Allied at the end.  Becuase the numbers usually drop I had set the sides to have a slight Axis advantage.

Offline ghostdancer

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10bears - my response
« Reply #14 on: June 22, 2002, 07:02:05 AM »
Wotan,

Your right I counted cmorris twice. You had 8 me262s up. 23 G10s did up according to the log. Although I am tired and maybe there is a duplicate name in the Arabian list I keep missing.


As for the 109-G10s 3.J2 upped 3:

    tubot
    dunky
    wotan



Arabian Knights up 19 109-G10s:

    AKOwl
    mollydog
    AKNimitz
    AKQwik
    WldThing
    AKChuklz
    AKWabbit
    AKH
    Gatso79
    AKNuttz
    AKcurly
    AKgrog
    Sundial2
    AKKarma
    AKWarp
    AKTazie
    bombguy
    AKZero
    AKwire


And NightHawks upped 1:

    thumper1
X.O. 29th TFT, "We Move Mountains"
CM Terrain Team