Critique: Close Encounters of the Third Reich.

[ergRTC]

so lets say your next door neighbor has a real love for old school buses full of chickens....  If you complain about his school bus full of chickens you are hitler?

[eskimo2]

Originally posted by ergRTC
so lets say your next door neighbor has a real love for old school buses full of chickens....  If you complain about his school bus full of chickens you are hitler?

How does this (above) relate to dictating how others should play?
Are you trying to say that if it's OK to complain in one situation, that it must be alright to complain in all situations?  Is that how you think?  Is that your point?  Are you six?



eskimo

[Löwe]

YES FINNALLY! Eskimo, and Erg, have earned the Itchey, and Scratchey Debate Medal.
Enjoy Fellas!

[ergRTC]

hehe thanks lowe!  

Hey eskimo, I cant believe you brought up hitler.  It didnt occur to me back at the lab, but as soon as I got home I remembered the cardinal rule.  As soon as a nazi or the nazi's are mentioned in reference to another person in an online forum it is dead. Forum closed.  (check the appendix of the darwin awards).  

in response to your last post, I dont see any difference between wanting an old school bus full of chickens in your backyard, and enjoying vulching.  

And hey, in the end, I am not the guy trying to justify vulching.  Remember that I belong to a squad (pretty much the only reason I play) that tries to remain historically accurate.  Pilots were relatively civil to one another during the war until terrible things started happening.  An example of which is a german pilot that enjoyed shooting chutes.   I take this attitude along with me into the game.  I do not 'hate' the nme pilots (well maybe a couple but you cant tell who they are) so I do not do things like shoot chutes, vulch fields for no strategic reason, bad mouth people on channel 1, whine in game (I save it for here), and so on.  

I think the other problem is that there is a group of people that really just vulch cause they got/get beat up in high school.  Its not my fault they havent graduated from police academy yet, so I dont want to have to deal with their childish behavior in here.  I believe the CT is around for other reasons than vulching and trying to pad scores.  If you like doing that you have the ma.  If you get sick of it, come back to the CT.  If the urge strikes you to vulch again, go back to the ma, very simple really.




p.s.  this is all really in good humor if you hadnt noticed yet.  I enjoy argueing, particularly about issues of personal taste.

[-ammo-]

I love to vlch if the oppertunity arrises:)  Dont get me wrong, I enjoy an enemy that knows how to employ good ACM tactics just as much;)

[eskimo2]

Originally posted by ergRTC

p.s.  this is all really in good humor if you hadnt noticed yet.  I enjoy argueing, particularly about issues of personal taste.

I like a good argument like I enjoy a good dogfight as well.

Too bad this one is more like I'm on a vulch!



ergRTC,
You, like Hitler, are trying to be a dictator.  You have your own set of rules on how you think the game should be played, and when players don't you whine.  That makes you a dictator-wanta-be.  The analogy to Hitler is appropriate.  

Vulching does not need to be justified to the majority of players.  Its built into the game.  That's why field guns can be destroyed in the first place.  The vast majority of players do it when the opportunity arises.  It also is a very effective base capture strategy.  A vulch draws friendly players in, who hold the airspace, crush the town, and capture the base.  It also can be a blast.

If you don't like that this game is a war game and simulates killing people, perhaps its too much for you.  You also need to read a bit more about WWII aviation history.  Lose your G-rated history books and search for facts.  Pilots had brutal jobs in the war.  Lots of aircraft and pilots were killed on the ground.  Thousands of troops were bombed and strafed.  
I know a P-51 attack pilot once who told me that after he was shot down, the Germans told him that he had killed over 650 troops.  They kept very good records on exactly which planes participated on attacks and they were able to tell him what targets he had hit on particular days, and how many people he had killed on particular missions.  He had strafed troop convoys and apparently had killed a lot of guys.  He didn't wasn't treated well as a POW.
You think pilots were relatively civil to one another during the war?  Some were.  And many, from all countries, were brutal.

If it bothers you that other players shoot chutes and vulch, then I think that you are taking this game way too seriously.  It's not real life, its just a computer game.  Lighten up.

If you think that you are somehow more chivalrous, noble or of a  gentleman than myself and others who vulch or kill chutes, well then good for you.  Maybe you should go Knight yourself.

I have found, that the only thing that really matters (respect-wise) is how you conduct yourself when you kill and/or die.  Take it well, and (most) people respect you.  Whine, squeak, make insults or make excuses, and most people could care less to be around you.

eskimo

[ergRTC]

eskimo we have met each other many times in the air, you know how I behave.  

As far as knighting, the queen still wont grant me an appointment.  

I think your arguement would be valid if I were a whiner, and cryed like a baby when you vulched me, but you didnt vulch me, and if you did I wouldnt cry.  I am complaining about your vulching from the perspective of someone on the outside.  

I prefer to follow a higher ideal in this game.  I know others dont have to, but I really do respect those that do.  I always find it astonishing when I meet perfectly good pilots, and nice people at that, behaving like an arse in a particular situation.    Its just this one thing.  Maybe I am english at heart rather than german, danish and russyn.  

In the end I play this game because I get to play against other people.  If those other planes were ai I would treat them with no respect.  As they are not, I do.

erg

[TracerX]

Sorry to interrupt this slugfest, but back to the original topic...

I have not spent any time in the CT yet, but took a look at the setup.  It looks like a good idea, and would probably work if there were sufficient numbers.  At the very least, it is a great attempt at trying something new.  

I think that I will withhold my criticism until I have made an earnest attempt at making this setup work.  Obviously someone has spent a lot of time thinking this one through and setting it up.  It is possible there are problems with the setup, but it could be that it was intended to provide a greater challenge for some of the more experienced pilots.  Less experienced pilots like myself may struggle and find it a little too difficult, but that does not mean that it is a bad map.  

Even the best map in the world would still not be universally liked by everyone, and would be subject to complaints and improvement requests.  I am sure that the creator would like to hear ideas for improvement, but how about some things that we like about this map.  Without any experience yet, it sounds like the distance between airfields is further than normal, or the fact that you have to fly a sector or more to bring an airplane from a different base into play makes it seem that way.  Either way, I think this is an improvement since the short distances, and high concentrations of airplanes seen in the MA are not historically very accurate.  A little more distance might give a better sense of what air combat was truly like.  I.e.: Harder to run for AA cover of an airbase, or for the help of other friendly aircraft.  Also, it will take a greater degree of organization or much greater numbers to defeat a neighboring superior air base.

These are my initial comments, thanks for giving us something new.  And now, back to our regularly scheduled heavy weight email fight...

[ergRTC]

ignore us tracer we are just being silly.


Actually I think the map is pretty good all in all, just that when you take an enemy base you get hurri 1s?  Am I right here?  I thought it was going to be good planes.  We have not had a whole lot of luck taking bases yet, so that may be the problem.  

I thought it was, for example, if you take  a base that has 262s, you would get tempests from that base.  I guess it is actually meant to make it harder and harder to take a base as you get into enemy territory.  Getting hurris (if I am right, which is likely not the case) is no big carrot.  I do like have to go to rear lines to pull in the big birds.  

I think this is particularly appropriate for the heavy bombers.  Also, I had no problems flying in a p51b or p47 and getting into the 'fightn' area within a reasonable time, but it does make you want to survive and not take stupid chances (something else I agree with).

Tracer we are going to be up in numbers around 9:30 10:00 you should pop in then.

erg

[eskimo2]

tracerx, you ideas are valid and appreciated.  I think that your POV of less experienced players is one that I hadn't considered, and might make it a bit tough for many folks.  I know that I have a really hard time in a plane like the 110C, and am probably over my head when going up against anything other than a Hurri 1.  Players who have not had a chance to become familiar with many planes may find themselves frustrated very often.
I figured that everyone would be forced to try new planes, and so the playing-ground overall would be even.  If this set-up puts newer players at an even greater disadvantage, however, than that is a big problem.  

Originally posted by ergRTC

Actually I think the map is pretty good all in all, just that when you take an enemy base you get hurri 1s?  Am I right here?  I thought it was going to be good planes.  We have not had a whole lot of luck taking bases yet, so that may be the problem.  

I thought it was, for example, if you take  a base that has 262s, you would get tempests from that base.  I guess it is actually meant to make it harder and harder to take a base as you get into enemy territory.  Getting hurris (if I am right, which is likely not the case) is no big carrot.  I do like have to go to rear lines to pull in the big birds.  

erg

You get a different plane at each base.

From the thread: "Next Setup: Close encounters of the Third Reich" posted by Jarbo.

"6. No battle for a base will be the same! Since a different aircraft will become available when a base gets captured, the dynamics of the fight will change dramatically.
* For example, if the Allies wish to attack A-39 from A-41, they will only be able to do so with Spit-IXs, and they will be going up against FW-190F-8s. If they are successful in capturing A-39, they will find the P-51B as the only fighter available. Pushing the fight to A-45, however, will pit them against ME-262s! So, with the capture of only one base, the fight can change from {Spit Vs 190} to {P-51 Vs 262}. "

The problem this week has been that there were so few bases captured that we got to see very little new front line planes.  

eskimo

[Oldman731]

Originally posted by eskimo2
I figured that everyone would be forced to try new planes

I was out of town for most of the weekend and week, so I only got to fly this setup once.  I very much enjoyed having to fly different planes (took away the guilt of being a spitdweeb), and I liked having only one a/c type per base.  I'm not sure how the map could be changed to avoid the 110C vs. Spit14 situation that I found myself in (and not in the spit, that time), but it did make for a (briefly) interesting fight.

I think this week demonstrated one of the nice things about the CT.  There are presently few enough people who fly it regularly that experimentation is possible without creating a huge whining ruckus.  I might not pick this setup a second time, but I'm glad to have had the first.

- oldman