When do we get one of these babys!!!!!

[AKWarp]

But the G forces I spoke of were not necessarily the outward push that would be caused by a high roll rate.....since the cockpits were situated off the center of the longitudinal axis, then when rolling, especially if it was roll one way, then the other (as might be encountered in a dogfight) the G forces were also a positive and negative respective to the pilot.

If the pilot rolled hard right, then the radar op was subject to a sudden negative G and the pilot a sudden positive G.  Flop around back and forth like this for  awhile and see how tired you get

If anyone ever gets the chance to do any heavy aerobatics in a high performance plane, try it....you will be amazed at how brutal it really is and how many bruises you get from banging your head and legs around in the cockpit.

[marauder]

Yes! HTC should make the Twin Mustang a perk plane!
(Just for a little -2 players in one plane- fun)

[Tac]

P-61. the Twin Mustang should be called "Siamese Stain" . Mwahahah

[fdiron]

The problem with that P-82 was the pilot was on the left side and the co-pilot on the right. When the pilot did a roll he did it along his axis of rotation. The poor co-pilot got ripped around the outside of the loop like a rollercoaster ride.

This is a wide-spread myth.  It has been debunked only fairly recently (1990s) afaik.  There is no way the pilot of the F-82 could roll the plane in a manner that would allow his fuselage to be the axis of the roll.

[Otto]

"This is a wide-spread myth. It has been debunked only fairly recently"

So what are you going to tell me next?    Elvis is really dead?

[K West]

"So what are you going to tell me next? Elvis is really dead?"

 No.  But they did have almost two dozen P-82A's ready before VJ day

 Westy

[Widewing]

Originally posted by Otto
" Neither pilot was on the axis of rotation"

Really?   Think about it for a second.

I have thought about it. The physics is simple enough; the aircraft will rotate around a point exactly mid span. However, unlike most aircraft, the pilots are subjected to centripetal forces during roll maneuvers. If we assume that the pilots sit 8 feet outboard of the roll axis, we have established what amounts to a centrifuge arm. Therefore the pilot feels force pushing him outward. He will also experience forces applied up or down relative to his spine. During roll maneuvers, one pilot will experience positive G, the other negative. Nonetheless, the roll rate being rather slow (probably not more than 85 degrees/second), the forces involved are not significant.

My regards,

Widewing

[Otto]

Ok, I've got a couple of strikes but I'm still swinging....


  You’re flying a P-61 Black Widow.  It uses spoilers for Roll Control.   You want to make a left turn.  You move the wheel in that direction and the left spoiler pops up reducing lift and increasing drag.    Is your plane rolling on:

1)  It’s Longitudinal axis (through the CG)

2)  The new Center of Lift somewhere out on the right wing.

3)  The right Wingtip.  

Anybody?



(Widewing, that sounds like a very reasoned analysis. Thanks)

[AKWarp]

Not knowing the specifics on the P-61, one question I would have is:

Does it use spoilers exclusively for roll control, or spoilers for low performance roll with the add-in of ailerons for authority and high roll rates (ala the Mitsubishi MU-2 and various large airliners)?

If it is spoiler only, then the axis of roll will be slightly off center line and inline with the center of lift at the initiation of a roll, and then it should stabilize to the CG if the roll continues (assuming no attempt to maintain altitude with elevator inputs).

[Otto]

Damned if I know Warp.  But this has been a 'Hanger Flying' staple for as long as I can remember.  I was hoping some one could tell me.   There were some home built sailplanes in the 70's that used the spoilers just for roll control but I never flew one.

   It could a normal roll through the CG if the increased lift on the outside wing due to it's faster speed raises it just as the inside wing is lowering but that's a guess.

   If it was out on the wingtip people use to wonder if you could 'rock' yourself into the ground trying to land in gusty winds.
First one wing drops, you correct, and then the other.
   
   Anyway, I had too much wine when I posted that.  I try to me more careful in the future