Author Topic: Red Skelton - Pledge of Allegiance  (Read 3083 times)

Offline Lizard3

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Red Skelton - Pledge of Allegiance
« Reply #45 on: June 28, 2002, 05:20:50 PM »
I believe it was Jefferson who so strongly fought for the seperation of church and state. IIRC it was because where he lived, you had to pay a tax or tithe to your local church that I believe was sort of licensed or permitted by the state. People who didn't belong to that branch of church were required to pay none the less. I'm not sure if they were required to attend, but people were being thrown in the clink for not paying or not being able to pay the local Jerry Falwell. It was this state sponsored, state inforced religion that bothered Jefferson so. I can't find my Jefferson papers to confirm this, but thats the way I remember it. To me this issue is and has been about running away from the original intent of the framers. Its about removing state inforcement of religion and religious taxation rather than the complete and utter expungment of all references to religion in any form from any thing in any way associated with or funded by the Federal goverment. Conversely, I also do not think that the religious zealots of athiesm have any business in removing anything. I would think any true fair minded athiest would be able to watch others say there pledge of allegiance, join in and skip a certain reference to the God, titering away at the silliness of human nature or whatever they chalk this belief in a higher power to.

The above is a perfect example of someone who firmly does not believe in the use of paragraphs. :rolleyes:

Offline Tumor

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Red Skelton - Pledge of Allegiance
« Reply #46 on: June 28, 2002, 05:41:55 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Nath[BDP]

Just saying to kids, "just don't say it if you don't believe" isn't going to work. There will definatly be a consequence of them acting differently of their peers, and they will probably be picked on because of it.

So.  It's thier choice.  And be realistic.. picked on?

Their reluctance might even end up in the teacher's subjective mind when it comes to grading or treating them a certain way.

Hogwash.  Now you've got an issue that has to do with ethics..NOT the pledge of allegiance.

I'll say it the 100th time (learned this tactic from Bill Clinton).  When I was in school nobody was forced and those kids who refused were treated no differently than anyone else.  "I" was picked on (for awhile) because I was poor, never had the "in" clothes, was the only kid in class with short hair (were talkin hippy 70's here) and my dad was a minister (no I'm no longer affiliated with any religion) and in short.. people hated me not only because I believed in god and held seperate standards than most (yes, this is the bad part of religion.. I know) but mostly... because my dad was a minister.  How scarred am I over that?  I'm not.... I learned how to kick ass, but I'm not scarred lol.
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Offline Tumor

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Red Skelton - Pledge of Allegiance
« Reply #47 on: June 28, 2002, 05:48:10 PM »
Ahh whats the point.

Anything that has anything to do with any "God" in any way is going to get attacked by the liberal left.  Thats a given and it's not worth the breath it takes to argue with'em over it.
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Offline Kanth

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Red Skelton - Pledge of Allegiance
« Reply #48 on: June 28, 2002, 06:33:45 PM »
Here's the US Flag Code

If anyone wants to look or refer.

http://www.usflag.org/us.code36.html#172

also an origins article that was interesting.

http://www.ffrf.org/fttoday/may99/lynn.html


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Offline Eagler

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must be a reason it bugs you so ...

other than your a Seminole :)
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Offline Voss

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Red Skelton - Pledge of Allegiance
« Reply #50 on: June 28, 2002, 08:01:06 PM »
The judge in this case basically reversed himself, so there won't be any immediate changes. I liked what the President had to say about this today.

Offline streakeagle

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Red Skelton - Pledge of Allegiance
« Reply #51 on: June 28, 2002, 08:38:02 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Eagler
why has it been ok since '54 and all of a sudden ppl are threatened by it?

politics - pure and simple
Very true: no properly motivated "godless communist" would be able to recite the pledge with those words in there. It was a means to detect subversives that were not traditional god-fearing Americans :p

"under God" was a knee-jerk response to commi paranoia.

There are inherent problems with our government system: we claim to support the concept that everyone has equal rights, we have a government that claims to be based on majority rule, we pass laws that show preferences to minorities, and we have a government that is founded on the separation of church and state which says Christian prayers at nearly every government and military ceremony.

How can you have equal rights if the majority determines what your rights are? Why would the majority pass laws that favor minorities? Why can't a students and teachers say Christian prayers in school when congressmen say it every day in goverment facilities on government time?

This case could be used to go one of two ways:

1) purge every last trace of religion from official government resources

2) prove once and for all that religous freedom is guaranteed even if you serve in an official goverment capacity that can influence mottos and pledges. I.e. supreme court judges can approve the use of the word "God" and prayers even in goverment buidlings, documents, mottos, and money :p

While it may seem extreme compared to American traditions, the constitution is very clear on separation of church and state, I don't understand why it has never been enforced properly.

For a parallel situation, consider slavery. Clearly slavery was unconstitutional, but at the time, people compromised for economic reasons. The southern economy and pride was more important than morals and justice. Of course the righteous Yankees were slave owners and traders too :p and were the last to own slaves since the southern slaves were freed during the Civil War by the Emancipation Proclamation while US (northern slaves) were freed after the war.

With religion, the situation was even worse: it was practically a crime to not be a protestant. Despite the Constitution, protestant faith was incorporated into most of our government institutions. Even now the vast majority shudder at the thought that our money and our pledge might be wrong to incorporate religious overtones. Just because a major change like this is against your traditions and faith doesn't mean the change is wrong. How many so-called "Christians" owned slaves? I am far from being a pinko commie liberal, but I believe our Constitution is clear and correct to insist on separation of church and state and that the Pledge, motto on money, and group prayers on government time are unconstitutional despite the fact that the vocal majority like things the way they are.
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Offline Boroda

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Red Skelton - Pledge of Allegiance
« Reply #52 on: June 29, 2002, 11:25:38 AM »
To the Flag - - Our standard; Old Glory ; a symbol of Freedom; wherever she waves there is respect, because your loyalty has given her a dignity that shouts, Freedom is everybody's job.

Not mine.

Freedom is inside you.

Any "symbol" of freedom is actually only another set of limits for your mind and thought.

Learn to live by yourself.