Author Topic: Stall Limiter in Combat Theater? (Read 773 times)

funkedup · « **on:** June 30, 2002, 06:05:34 PM »

This could be a growth opportunity. A lot of guys are gonna cry if the stall limiter is permitted for n00bs in the MA. If it's disabled in the CT you guys might be able to pick up some healthy numbers.

eskimo2 · « **Reply #1 on:** June 30, 2002, 06:57:11 PM »

Nothing to lose.

eskimo

brady · « **Reply #2 on:** June 30, 2002, 07:37:03 PM »

Hmmm:)

Sabre · « **Reply #3 on:** June 30, 2002, 09:43:29 PM »

Not on my watch.

Sabre

Wotan · « **Reply #4 on:** June 30, 2002, 09:46:36 PM »

i believe the stall limiter will only be enabled as a default setting for spit/hurri pilots in the main.

I think I could agree with that as a default setting for the CT as well. Have you heard about the secret "hispano limiter"? fire more than 10 rounds a second and boom your wings fall off.

Keep that in mind

funkedup · « **Reply #5 on:** June 30, 2002, 10:04:58 PM »

LOL DIE WOTAN!!!

eskimo2 · « **Reply #6 on:** July 01, 2002, 08:28:40 AM »

I think the CT is a great place for some newbies. A lot of folks begin playing Aces High in hopes of re-living some WWII dogfights and air battles. Some of them get turned off by the hodge-podge mix of planes in the MA, and eventually leave because they find it to be more of a game with WWII airplanes than a WWII air combat simulator. The CT, however, could be just the place for them. We need to make them (and everyone) feel welcome in the CT. This should include giving them what they need to help avoid the frustrations that go along with being a newbie.

The only ones who will actually use the stall limiter (and benifit from it) will be the newbies. If they use it, so what? They are still going to be dieing 90% of the time, but at least they won't find themselves going into uncontrolled spins, in the middle of their first decent dogfight, without realizing what they did wrong.

Padlock, stall limiter, combat trim and auto take off, are tools that help those who need or want them, but truley give them no advantage over anyone else.

eskimo

Sabre · « **Reply #7 on:** July 01, 2002, 08:54:48 AM »

Following my earlier knee-jerk reaction, I've pondered this issue a bit more. Eskimo makes some good points, the most salient one being that this, as well as other "crutches" take away nothing from those that choose not to use them. The newbies will cointinue to die at a prodigious rate, but to enemy fire instead of their own inexperience. On the other hand, are we doing them any favor by allowing them another crutch? Is the frustration of spinning in any less than that of being out-turned by those more experienced sticks that can push the envelope to the limit? How long does it take the average player to learn to listen to the stall horn and not yank the stick quite so fast?

We had this same option in WB. So long as no one forced me to use it, I didn't really care, except in an abstractly philosophical way. I would vehemently oppose forcing "easy flight" on anyone, but allowing people to choose it is another matter. My gut feeling is that Eskimo's argument is marginally stronger than Funk's. It would be very interesting to follow the stats on how many new players keep their account after their two-week trial once (and if) this is implemented in the MA. You could then compare it with the same stats before it was implemented to see if it really does improve player longevity.

We (the CT staff) should seek HTC guidance on this issue. My own thoughts are to not implement it immediately in the CT, but to instead wait to see how it affects new-player retention in the MA. If it truely helps newbies get up the learning curve and stick with the game, then we should implement it in the CT. My 2 cents worth.

Sabre
CT Staff

Eagler · « **Reply #8 on:** July 01, 2002, 09:13:02 AM »

i don't see it as a huge issue

in the 2+ years playing Ah, I can count on two hands the number of pilots I've seen spinning in from an alt high enough they should have recovered .. maybe one hand.

Kweassa · « **Reply #9 on:** July 01, 2002, 01:45:39 PM »

I agree with eskimo.

The way HT describes stall-limiter, it won't be much of use in actual combat anyway..(heck, I might actually enjoy seeing every Spit and N1K2 using this feature so they limit their own turns..

).

I think it could be viewed in the same way as Combat Trim.

Nifty · « **Reply #10 on:** July 02, 2002, 01:42:10 PM »

Combat trim is less of a crutch than having trim tabs in planes than never had them in the first place.

Also, isn't the affect of being out of trim different in our simulation than it was in real life? I thought I read somewhere that being out of trim in real life just pushed the center of your stick around. You trimmed so that your stick would be centered and you could get full deflection. Is that an incorrect assessment?

jarbo · « **Reply #11 on:** July 03, 2002, 11:17:43 AM »

My understanding (correct me if I'm wrong) is that if enabled as "user selectable" in an arena, a pilot would still have the option of chosing not to use it. As Hitech stated the stall limiter will really be a disadvantage in a combat environment. Therefor, offhand I don't neccesarily see a problem with enabling the stall limiter since it will only help the inexperienced pilot fly the plane, and help the experienced pilot get the kill. Sounds like a WIN WIN.

So far, "USER SELECTED" stall limiter doesn't sound so bad to me.

Jarbo
CT Staff

Trim can help you pull out of a dive that required more stick pressure than you could physically muster in some cases

Sabre · « **Reply #12 on:** July 03, 2002, 12:14:49 PM »

Niffty, that is incorrect. Cranking in trim would actually result in deflection of the control surface and the stick. Are previous CO of the Buccaneers (Whitey, who succombed to cancer about a year ago...God bless him) used to tell us about landing his airplane without touching the stick. He used the trim wheels alone to enter the pattern, turn base and final, and control his AOA all the way to touchdown. Trim tabs on the control surfaces actually deflect when you change the trim settings, changing the lift vector for that surface, and hence the control surfaces angle of attack. Because the stick is coupled to the control surface by the control cables (at least in non-hydraulic systems), when the control surface is forced by the trim tab to alter it's position, the stick moves with it. The trim system in no way alters the amount of deflection the control surface is capable of.

Toad · « **Reply #13 on:** July 04, 2002, 07:28:12 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by Sabre
Niffty, that is incorrect. Cranking in trim would actually result in deflection of the control surface and the stick.

I think you and Nifty are saying the same thing. I don't see the disagreement.

As far as flying the pattern with trim only, yes, lots of people have done that. In my squadron being able to demo that ability was taken as proof that you had mastered the approach parameters of the aircraft. In fact, done correctly with gear and flap configuration changes made at appropriate times to manage drag, we further refined this to the point where only two changes to throttle position were made throughout the approach and landing. That was the "test", the "game" if you will.

What did it have to do with anything else? Not much. It just meant you knew what had to be done and where it had to be done in the pattern.

The manual trim we have... and the way it is used in "dogfighting"... are a far cry from what you'd actually do and the results you'd actually get in a WW2 aircraft.

This was all discussed at length in the Help section; Andy Bush explained it pretty well.

Wotan · « **Reply #14 on:** July 04, 2002, 07:56:32 AM »

that trim post you referred to was one of the best post I have read on this board. I wish such a clear explanation could be added to the help files when explaining combat trim.