Author Topic: M16  (Read 1643 times)

Offline Gman

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M16
« Reply #30 on: July 04, 2002, 04:23:30 AM »
My best pal is with 2 para in the Brit Para regiment, and often works with the 22nd guys, and he told me most of them and most of his unit are using M4's built either by Demaco in Canada, or Saber in the UK.

The 5.56 round mentioned above used in Somalia was the SS109 round, which is basically an FMJ round with a steel penetrator inside it.  Works fairly well for piercing light armour worn by troops, but tends to not create a large enough temporary stretch category when passing through tissue, hence the lack of knockdown power.

The 7.62x51mm round is still far superior to the 5.56 IMO in all departments, and I've got about 100,000 rounds of it through various M14's, National Match M1A's, HK's, and FNFAL's.  175 gr hollow point boat tail will ruin anyones day out to 800 yards and further, while the 5.56 loses the majority of its punch around the 500/600 yard mark.

I will say that the 5.56 round can be extremely lethal if the right load is used.  The stuff that most tactical units buy from us is Hornady TAP rounds, which are nasty with a capitol N.  Anything in the T line from about 300 yards in is going down and staying down, period.

As for the M4 discussion, I've got a 14.5" colt M4 as my primary service rifle gun at the moment, and I've whipped guys shooting Match 20" guns in 600 yard run downs, and I find its accuracy within about a half minute of what a 20" rifles is.  62 grain hollow point boat tail rounds are very lethal, and 77 gr even more so, however 14.5" guns have issues with stabilization with the 77's in my experience.

As for the M4 having lethality problems, this is sovled by ammunition selection, although since many regular line units in the USA are getting it, I'm not sure if this is possible for them.  Since most infantry shots are 100 yards or less with a main battle rifle statistically, I'm sure troops love it compared to an M16a2 since it's lighter and a hell of a lot handier.

I'd still prefer a good M14/M1A if I had a choice over any rifle, I've yet to find something so easy to shoot and maintain, with such good accuracy.  I'll scan in some 1000 meter targets I've shot with my national match.


Quote
Was this the same Canadian armed forces group that was deemed unsuitable for combat at the beginning of Desert Storm?


Don't know where this comes from, the troops at Canada dry 1 and 2 were more than capable, and if the PPCLI's performance in Afganistan is any indicator, the US command's praise and their rescuing of US troops and taking on tasks that caused the 10th moutain troops to get 35% casualties from exhaustion while not having a man go down would rectify any past rumours and bs.  Not to mention that a Canuck holds the record for longest battlefield killshot (with 50 cal AMAX rounds from my company's inventory btw, :) ).  Sorry to go off, I just hate the dissing of Canadian troops when they outperform all other NATO nations in every theater they've operated in historically (Vimy ridge in WW1, Juno beach in WW2, recent actions in Afganistan etc etc).

At the time of Desert Storm, the Canadian brigade in Germany was considered one of THE best, if not THE best units in Nato, and I've got 3 sources, all Amercian that state this, one being the AGW Desert Shield/Storm fact book.  Political reasons are mostly to blame for our lack of participation in the actual ground fighting, but our CF18's flew tons of sorties in support of Coalition forces, and dropped a lot of unguided bombs.

Also, the rifle that Canadians use is the C7, which is manufactured in Canada by Demaco.  It's a M16 variant with a hammer forged barrel and flat top mounting a 3.5 combat optic called the Elcan.  Early Elcans tended to not be very precise, and some even flopped off their mounts, but the latest generations work well, and we mount them on the C6/M249 as well.  Our C8 barrels are VERY sought after, being hammer forged as well, and I got my colt M4 upper from a guy in 5th SF group in FT Lewis for a single barrel (well, a Pal got it from me while shooting there with them anyhow).
« Last Edit: July 04, 2002, 04:35:44 AM by Gman »

Offline lord dolf vader

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« Reply #31 on: July 04, 2002, 12:13:46 PM »
methinks the guy that thinks the m16 is more predictably acurate is wrong. dang .223 flys all over hell . you can drop a guy first shot in a high wind with a m14 at 700 yds over and over and over and over . m16s except for a few match grade ones ive seen are like tonka toys. real crap

Offline Samm

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« Reply #32 on: July 04, 2002, 12:36:35 PM »
at 700 yrds no shlt, I don't think an m16 can hit a target at 700meters let a lone produce a shot group . Everyone knows 308 winchester far surpasses remington 223 in range . And no I'm not wrong, field grade m16s are more accurate than field grade m14s . This surprised me too the first time I read it because all I'd ever heard was how much better the m14 was than the m16 .

BTW in my hands the tonka toys produce shot groups that were 75% of the time one hole. Of course I also knocked down the 800meter silouettes with the 7.62 m60, I would never suggest that the m60 is more accurate, those pieces of crap are wildly innacurate .
« Last Edit: July 04, 2002, 12:54:28 PM by Samm »

Offline Gman

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« Reply #33 on: July 04, 2002, 11:30:34 PM »
I've shot 1.5 moa groups at 500 meters with a variety of M16/M4 variants, which is about a 8 inch group.  Yes, these were good days, with NO wind at all, prone or rested.  I can usually shoot a 3 or 4 inch with my Super Match M1A, and 2 inch groups with any of my precision rifles at that range.

Don't write the M16 or 5.56 off at these ranges, they just lack the ft lbs of the 7.62 round.

300 win mag still owns all, at 1000 meters a 180 gr round has more energy than the hotest 44 magnum does at point blank.  Unreal.
« Last Edit: July 04, 2002, 11:36:07 PM by Gman »

Offline lord dolf vader

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« Reply #34 on: July 06, 2002, 06:49:14 AM »
methinks the roadkill is flyin fast and hard . one hole groups with ironsite m16 with no range mentioned mayby at 25 feet. 8 inch groups with a .223 at 500 yards.yea  with a match rifle and match ammo and a scope from a sandbaged bench  if there is no wind and you got the luck of the irish mayby. otherwise let me take this place to tell you. roadkill.

and you can say all day a m 16 is more accurate than a m14 but all things equal the guy with the 14 is gonna drop your bellybutton .m16 with .223 is lighter that is its only advantage. and you dont have to clean the m14 every 10 friggin minutes to be resonably shure it wont jam either unlike the m16.

m16 is just another insider deal with the military there are better rifles and cheaper rifles and better&cheaper at the same time rifles who cares m16 roxxors baby . sigh

Offline Samm

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« Reply #35 on: July 06, 2002, 09:06:24 AM »
Umm weapons are zerod at 25 meters, of course I'm sure you know allready knew that . And the tests were done at varying ranges up to max effective, I'm sure you know what that is too .

BTW When is the last time you qualified ?

Ever notice those units that can carry what ever weapon they choose, SAS etc. consistently choose m16s variants, they must be full of BS too .
« Last Edit: July 06, 2002, 09:12:37 AM by Samm »

Offline Samm

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« Reply #36 on: July 06, 2002, 10:11:39 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by lord dolf vader


m16 is just another insider deal with the military there are better rifles and cheaper rifles and better&cheaper at the same time rifles who cares m16 roxxors baby . sigh


You're right dude it's a global conspiracy perpetrated for 30 years by NATO and Warsaw pact to keep the m14 and the AK47 down.

Me thinks guys like you are the reason there is a market for periodicals like Guns&Ammo and Shotgun news . Go to school and get your B4 identifier, then when you talk shop and call people liars you opinions might have some validity .

Offline lord dolf vader

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« Reply #37 on: July 06, 2002, 10:49:55 AM »
qualified ? with who the friggin army lol . i dont teach rifle range any more so its been a while i think my nra cirts were for 5 years and its been more that that .

but i have been hunting and firin rifles and pistols in the military and in civilian life since i was 6 now im 34 . you do the math. but no matter what i say it wont matter to you so whatever.

anyone who posts about what a insanely  good shot they are is a handsomehunk. its a rule. and anyone who argues the merits of the m16 over the m14 is about the same. sorry its a self evident truth

also not once in europe or africa did i see a m16 that wasent purchased by our gov for them. and not one rifle that wasent .30 or 7.62. . face it you got a second rate weapon that is suitable for use by a woman and since you boys land one out of 100,000 or so rounds they went for a cheap lite weapon so you could hump more ammo.

and who cares about sas and the other "elite force" its the regular grunts/jarheads/sailors that get the job done and name one of those forces that uses m16 ( outside of givaways mexico and  canada).  in 91 i was walkin duty with a m14 we had m16s but they sucked so badly during shooting trials on the ship they stayed in the lockers. so  we used the ones that didnt jam constantly the m14s.
« Last Edit: July 06, 2002, 10:52:42 AM by lord dolf vader »

Offline Samm

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« Reply #38 on: July 06, 2002, 11:31:50 AM »
You said it, it is cheaper and lighter than the m14, it is also more accurate at ranges less than 400m . Can it knock down the 800m silouettes ? No, it's not supposed to . Anybody who is engaging a target farther than 400m with any rifle without optics is wasting ammo . Only 10% of average soldiers can hit a 300m man sized silouette with an m16 or an m14 . Only time I've ever seen malfunctioning become problematic with the m16 is when using blanks . Every modern military uses 5.56 or 5.45 assault rifles. USA, Russia, UK, Australia, Austria, Germany, France well all of europe, Korea, Isreal I could go on . Only countries still using 30cal battle rifles, ak47, FAL, FNL are third world.

Oh and Gman 5th group is in Ft Riley Kansas, Ft Lewis is 1rst Group HQ .

Offline Monk

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« Reply #39 on: July 06, 2002, 12:37:03 PM »
Now that's a rifle:D

Offline Samm

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« Reply #40 on: July 06, 2002, 12:48:30 PM »
Or a remarkable likeness :)

Offline AKDejaVu

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M16
« Reply #41 on: July 06, 2002, 01:21:48 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Monk
Now that's a rifle:D
Nice Rifle... what caliber?

Just got another Model 700 Police  today.  Its my first .308 caliber rifle.  I'll place it next to my Model 700 Sendero 7mm STW.

I'm getting a chuckle out of the M14 vs M16 debates.  Both are fine guns.  The M14 didn't take quite as long to develop... but does anyone know if its been tested in a battlefield yet?

One thing... I'd take the M16 over the G-3s and Galil's outfitting many military units these days.  I still recall the reactions of most M16 sceptics when things were presented on a level field.  Always that of suprise.

I do have alot of M16/AR-15 experience... I don't have any M14 experience.  I wonder how many posting here have any real experience with either outside of what they've read or shooting at 25yards during basic training.

It reminds me of the debates that revolved around the military switching to the Baretta 92 for the official sidearm.  All of the hypothetical arguments were hillarious.  Truth be told.. the Baretta was just the better 9mm sidearm at the time.  Of course, it wasn't better than the .45... but that is an entirely different thing;)

AKDejaVu

Offline Gman

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« Reply #42 on: July 06, 2002, 01:32:42 PM »
Quote
methinks the roadkill is flyin fast and hard . one hole groups with ironsite m16 with no range mentioned mayby at 25 feet. 8 inch groups with a .223 at 500 yards


Notice I said "variants" and "prone" before.  :/

I've got an Armalite ar10T with a M3lr 3.5-10x Leupold on it which will shoot .75 MOA at 500 still, so you do the math.  That's a lot better than 8 inches, which you claim is "bs".  Les Baer makes a target AR variant thats GURANTEED to shoot .5 MOA or BETTER.  http://www.cfiarms.com/vn/lesbaer/01:LBRSV?token=PwymYCY2PUvgFEKQJ8RhRQ  .  I also shoot on the order of 2000 rounds through my AR/M4 variants a month in either service rifle matches or practising for them.  Shooting 1.5 MOA with a match Ar15 at these ranges is so commonplace where I shoot that I boggled as to why it's even being debated.

As for the M14/AR argument you put forward, it depends on the rifle.  Take an absolutely stock M14 from any manufacturer, including Springfield, and a stock M16/AR15A2, it'll come down to the shooter at ranges less than 500 meters IMO.

I've never seen a basic M14 you can still find in Canada (a lot of winchesters for some reason) shoot that great, but the 3 different Springfield M1A's I've got all shoot satisfactorily, with the Super Match being in the "quite good" category.  But a 1000$ AR10T, which is 3x less expensive than a Super Match will outshoot it to 600 meters all day long in my experience.  



This is my range from the 700 meter mark, which is about half way up from the maximum distance.

I've also shot in a US Navy course at Ft. Lewis last year with some guys from my company who were training Vancouver City Tactical at the time, and I shot a 460 12x , with the paper work signed off by the commander who oversaw it, with my Colt M4 (pic below) the first time I used it with IVI 62gr SS109 ammo, so please don't "bs" people be saying these rifles are inaccurate or pieces of junk.  I've had 4 stopages in the last 2500 rounds through my AR15A2, and I only cleaned it 3 times in all that shooting.  IMO the reliability issues are crap so long as you take care of your stuff, and replace parts when you are supposed to.

« Last Edit: July 06, 2002, 01:50:05 PM by Gman »

Offline Samm

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« Reply #43 on: July 06, 2002, 01:33:16 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by AKDejaVu
Nice Rifle... what caliber?

I do have alot of M16/AR-15 experience... I don't have any M14 experience.  I wonder how many posting here have any real experience with either outside of what they've read or shooting at 25yards during basic training.
 


Raises hand .

Side note, the 25m paper is used for zeroing your battlesight only. At least when I went to basic training the targets ranged from 50m to 300m pop ups . And the rounds I fired in basic training amount to less that one percent of all the ammo I used during my whole gig .

Oh dear I've been reduced to autofellatio exhibitionism .

Offline AKDejaVu

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« Reply #44 on: July 06, 2002, 01:40:12 PM »
Ah.. no need to support yourself there Samm... it isn't really like that.

You can see from the argument just who has/has not had experience with the weapons they are comparing.

Like I said... I have tons of M-16/AR-15 experience (own an AR-15).. but feel it may be difficult to compare to a weapon I don't have any experience with.

I do believe that it would be tough for one to be much better than ther other.  The M16 is a fine weapon that has been battle tested and redsigned and then battle tested again.  Its a hard one to beat.

AKDejaVu