Author Topic: M16  (Read 1637 times)

Offline lord dolf vader

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« Reply #60 on: July 07, 2002, 03:24:18 PM »
jungle fighting in the air force . you are truly a rare bird ill give you that. what combat medal whould that be out of curiosity?


the m16 had been used for a long while and is obviously a servicable rifle after 3 or 4 redesigns, it is my contention that the rifle replaced a better ( in terms of stopping power ( considering the geneva convention wont allow most ammo solutions to the lack of stoping power and damage cause by the rifle) i am aware of the tumbling of the projectile once inside the target was designed to give alot of the effects of higer damage projectiles without breaking the rules of war.

now that said the .223 is a balisticaly inferior round less of everything than the .308/7.62 it replaced. it in my experience and alot of others  is  the m 16 is a  wepon very prone to jamming in field conditions ( yea even on a boat the rifles get dirty go figgure). keep it real clean or it jams this is plain old unacceptable in a military wepon. the m14 was better in every way but weight and  recoil. you guys own them and im telling you your multi thousand dollar m16 is junk next to a 400 or 500 buck m14 shure you dont like it . but that dosent change it.


the m16 is a less accurate rifle in real life situations than the m 14. always was always will be. hey but you look like a cool sas wanabe at the gun range.

samm said the oposite about acuracy and said he had tests to prove it . well where are they ?

Offline funkedup

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« Reply #61 on: July 07, 2002, 03:58:29 PM »
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I bow to your deck patrol experience and will keep my in the middle of the jungle experiences to myself. They surely pale in comparison.


ROFL with apologies to TOWD.

TOWD where's the love man?  Group hug people!

Offline fdiron

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« Reply #62 on: July 07, 2002, 04:10:33 PM »
Who is TOWD?  I see "Toad", but no "TOWD".

Offline Samm

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« Reply #63 on: July 07, 2002, 05:28:04 PM »
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Originally posted by lord dolf vader
samm said the oposite about acuracy and said he had tests to prove it . well where are they ?


No I didn't .

I said that in tests field grade m16a2s consistantly produced tighter shot groups (this means more accurate) than field grade m14s, that is true look it up I'm not going to do it for you .

Offline AKDejaVu

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« Reply #64 on: July 07, 2002, 06:01:45 PM »
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Originally posted by lord dolf vader
jungle fighting in the air force . you are truly a rare bird ill give you that. what combat medal whould that be out of curiosity?
I'm sorry towd... you obviously don't know nearly as much about military goings on as you seem to think you do.  I'll let you try to figure that one out for yourself.  The timeframe was around 92-93.
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the m16 had been used for a long while and is obviously a servicable rifle after 3 or 4 redesigns, it is my contention that the rifle replaced a better ( in terms of stopping power ( considering the geneva convention wont allow most ammo solutions to the lack of stoping power and damage cause by the rifle) i am aware of the tumbling of the projectile once inside the target was designed to give alot of the effects of higer damage projectiles without breaking the rules of war.
Stopping power... hmmmm.  I guess if you believe that is the end all be all of assault weapons you might be correct.  But I get the feeling quite a few people think there's more to it than that.  It seems to be the rest of it that's being overlooked.
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now that said the .223 is a balisticaly inferior round less of everything than the .308/7.62 it replaced.
Inferior in what capacity?  I know you aren't simply saying one round is better than another.  It would not make sense to try to compare the inferiority/superiority of two vastly different calibers.
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it in my experience and alot of others  is  the m 16 is a  wepon very prone to jamming in field conditions ( yea even on a boat the rifles get dirty go figgure). keep it real clean or it jams this is plain old unacceptable in a military wepon.
I question your "experience" and tend to think that legend is the main contributor to this belief.  I've always found this to be the case when people sit around talking about guns rather than using them.
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the m14 was better in every way but weight and  recoil.
ummm... if you only look at numbers that might be correct.  I will contend that an M-16 is far and away easier to bring on target and fire a round off quicker.  The sights are excellent and open... Its a very easy gun to maneuver and use.  That in and of itself is the most critical think I can think of when designing an assault rifle.
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you guys own them and im telling you your multi thousand dollar m16 is junk next to a 400 or 500 buck m14 shure you dont like it . but that dosent change it.
I find this quite ironic.  I don't own an M-14 because I can't afford one.  An AR-15 is much more reasonably priced.  You can actually find m14's for less than $1200 anywhere?  I could find mini-14's at comparable prices to AR-15s but not any large caliber weapons.

But please... don't leat actual costs stand in the way of your bias... keep leaning and exagerating all you want.  It helps prove other people's point.
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the m16 is a less accurate rifle in real life situations than the m 14. always was always will be. hey but you look like a cool sas wanabe at the gun range.
Real life situations?  What would those be?  I'm curious here because you really seem to be pulling this one out of your ass.  An M-14 is great if you are shooting prone or over the hood of a car and have to cover a great distance.  The M-16 is great if you are standing or moving and have to bring the weapon on target.  Now... which one is more condusive to combat?
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samm said the oposite about acuracy and said he had tests to prove it . well where are they ?
He said he read it... which is the equivilent of your experience and what you've "heard".

AKDejaVu

Offline Samm

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« Reply #65 on: July 07, 2002, 06:29:33 PM »
Well after a very short search here is some info I found from none other than the Us Navy shooting team's webpage.

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original version of the M16 malfunctioned too easily during part of the Vietnam War. Lessons learned, the M16 has been improved periodically over the years and today, in its M16A2 configuration, it is the most accurate service rifle employed in the world though not necessarily the most reliable mechanically.


Here's more.

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Civilian and military armorers have developed modifications to the M16, making it the most accurate service rifle, for target shooting competitions, except at the longest distances, where it rivals but does always outperform the M14.[/i]


And yes I realise it they're not talking about fieldgrade m16s, or fieldgrade m14s for that matter . I'm sure if I did some more digging I would come up with a lot more information, but I'm not the loud mouth telling people they're full of toejam .

Offline Samm

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« Reply #66 on: July 07, 2002, 06:58:09 PM »
If by stopping power you mean hydrostatic shock consider this; the muzzle velocity of the m14 is 2800fps, the muzzle velocity of the m16a2 is 3100fps . The problem of the .223" projectile yaw and tumble at >450m was corrected by increasing the rifling twist from 12" to 7" in the m16a2 . I agree that the 7.62mm nato round is a better choice, for sniper rifles and machine guns . But for service rifles a smaller, faster projectile is preferable .

Offline Gman

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« Reply #67 on: July 07, 2002, 08:50:45 PM »
Here, I'm going to post some data from the course my company teaches to Law Enforcement units regarding the 5.56 and 7.62 round performance.

One thing that should be established is that bullet types and weights make a huge difference, as does barrel twist, as mentioned in a post above.

Bullet Comparison: 223 vs 208

Fed .223 69 gr match:

Foot lbs:

Muzzle = 1380 ft/lb, 200m=925 ft/lb, 400m=475ft/lb, 600m=375 ft/lb, 1000m=170 ft/lb.

Drift in 10 MPH 90 degree crosswind

100m = .9 inches, 200m = 3.7 inches, 400m = 16.3 inches, 600m = 41.3 inches, 1000m = 140 inches.

Trajectory for 100m Zero

100m = zero, 200m = -3.2", 400m = -28.3", 600m = -89.4", 800m = -207", 1000m = -405".


Federal 175 gr HBPT Match .308

Foot pounds:

Muzzle = 2520 ft/lb, 200m= 1870 ft/lb, 400m= 1355ft/lb, 600m=970 ft/lb, 1000m=510 ft/lb

Drift in 10 MPH 90 degree crosswind

100m = .8 inches, 200m = 3.1 inches, 400m = 13.6 inches, 600m = 33.3 inches, 1000m = 107 inches.


Trajectory for 100m Zero

100m = zero, 200m = -4.5", 400m = -35.5, 600m = -105", 800m = -228", 1000m = -421".



Wound Data:

Same rounds as above

.223

Permanent wound channel depth: 13.2"
Permanent wound channel diameter: .45"
Maximum Temporary Stretch Diameter: 3.3"
Number of Significant Fragments: 8

.308

Permanent wound channel depth: 22.0"
Permanent wound channel diameter: .7"
Maximum Temporary Stretch Diameter: 6.4"
Number of Significant Fragments: 3-5




This data confirms what everyone has pretty much agreed to here, that the 7.62x51mm round is a lot more devestating than the 5.56x45mm round.  Against informal media, such as car doors, light metal plating, trees, sandbags, and soil, the 7.62 FAR outperforms the 5.56.

This being said however, this discussion has centered around accuracy, and as you can see from the data above, barring any medium or higher winds, the 5.56 has a less bloopy trajectory than the 7.62 round.  All this baloney about "omg the 5.56 cant hit toejam at 500 meters" is the talk of the less informed shooter, who spends less time than others pulling the trigger and working up new loads, and studying the scientific data that is aquired by the combination of doing both.  The force greatly affecting bullet flight barring any wind is GRAVITY.  Sure, the rotation and stabilization of the round plays a part, and this directly relates to the rifle, particularly the headspace gap and barrel performance, but in general shooting community experience, there is little to give either way between the 5.56 and 7.62 in this department when fired from M16's and M14's, both being semi-auto rifles, with the M14 legendary for poor headspace without work.

Therefore:  Wind not being a factor, as I previously specified in posts 1-4, as did others, the 5.56 IS an inherently more accurate round due to the fact that gravity has less time to affect it, and in fact affects it less (see the trajectory figures).  This, again, is of course barring any wind, as wind affects the crosssection of the smaller 5.56 more than the larger 7.62 strangely enough, mostly due to the law that an object in motion stays in motion along a direct vector, with the heavier (7.62 has nearly 3x more mass) being harder to move off course.  Regarding the wind, consider that BOTH rounds at 400meters in only a 10mph crosswind are OVER A FOOT off target, which is not much smaller than the width of a likely enemy, and most certainly out of the T-line area of his body when facing head on.  Again, the talk of "5.56 cant hit jack in wind but 7.62 can" is overzealous praise for the 7.62 at least.



I think we can all agree that the 7.62 hits much harder, and has far greater effects, reaching into the 10x that of the 5.56 when all the info is considered.  If I could keep only one of the 25+ guns I have from time to time, not counting what is in company inventory, I't would be a 7.62 rifle, likely an M1A of some description, and about 25 mags for it.
« Last Edit: July 07, 2002, 08:59:37 PM by Gman »

Offline Braz

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« Reply #68 on: July 08, 2002, 02:58:00 AM »
Gman,

Can I be on your side? :)

Offline Tumor

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« Reply #69 on: July 08, 2002, 07:55:36 AM »
Just grab a .460 Weatherby and shadaaap!
"Dogfighting is useless"  :Erich Hartmann

Offline Monk

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« Reply #70 on: July 08, 2002, 08:07:12 AM »
M16A2.....best assault rifle in the world.
Trust me.;)

Offline Krusher

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« Reply #71 on: July 08, 2002, 01:10:42 PM »
WOW a gun thread with no talk of registering, banning or the 2nd amendment !

I like it :)

Offline Zippatuh

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« Reply #72 on: July 08, 2002, 02:26:30 PM »
From what I can remember…

I have the information loaded in the noggin that is telling me the reason for the 3 round burst was to conserve ammunition and to promote accuracy instead of spray and pray.  The original A2’s had a full flash suppressor on them with some talk of making an initial aim at the lower abdomen and letting the natural recoil walk the barrel up the target.  The intention was to get one or two shots center mass.  I seem to think I had this pumped into me at basic.

Whether or not that is fact makes no difference because the flash suppressor on the A2 was changed to have a solid bottom with excess exhaust blowing up to steady the barrel for the next shot.

As for automatic…  I could make one fire damn near automatic on three round burst just by pulling the trigger quickly.

As for distance, if my memory is correct the farthest target to qualify in the ARMY was set at 300 meters and when it popped you had all the time you needed to adjust.

Reason for the 5.56 caliber, ammunition weight and wounding affect.  Standard load for a grunt used to be 200 rounds along with everything else.  The wounding theory, it takes a few to remove the dead after the battle but it can take up to 5 each to assist someone wounded during the battle.

And for what it’s worth I thought it was a fine weapon.

Offline midnight Target

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« Reply #73 on: July 08, 2002, 02:36:09 PM »
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Originally posted by Krusher
WOW a gun thread with no talk of registering, banning or the 2nd amendment !

I like it :)


I say we register the 2nd Amendment, then ban it.

Offline Ripsnort

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« Reply #74 on: July 08, 2002, 02:53:06 PM »
Wow, can't believe I read this whole thread! Learned something too, about the superiority of the M16 over the M14 (Whatever Lord Dolf Vadr aka Towd says is absolutely 180 deg from the truth 99.9999 % of the time)