Author Topic: Thrustmaster Hotas Cougar Design-Flaw (Read 702 times)

Borg · « **on:** July 03, 2002, 10:05:50 AM »

I posted this here so that I might warn as many folks as possible about some mechanical-design issues with the $260 Thrustmaster Hotas Cougar Joystick.

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Fundamental Design Flaw of Cougar

I sent this to the guillemot tech-support email address: hotas-support@guillemot.com which bounced back to me as a non-working address, but was furnished as a link on their own website.

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I have been an enthusiastic Thrustmaster user for the last 5 years, and I recently ordered and received the long-awaited Hotas Cougar Joystick. I base my following criticisms on 30 years of experience as a military and commericial pilot.

It arrived in good condition but I immediately returned it becase of a fundamental design flaw that you have overlooked.

All of your high-end joysticks have a very pronounced center-detent or "notch" which makes small, precise pitch and roll corrections very difficult to accomplish. Moving diagonally through this joystick's centerpoint is impossible to accomplish in a smooth and precise manner.

I could live with the stiff springs, but when trying to move the aircraft's nose up or down slightly or when trying to move a gun off-center slightly, the force required to overcome the centerpoint detent causes me to overshoot the desired amount of change everytime. It's a real shame that such a high-quality joystick has such a fundamental flaw.

I would compare it to a car's steering or a real aircraft's control-stick. They do not have a notch or detent in the center position, they just require more force, the further you go off-center. It is linear and progressive, and not like this stick.

I am very disappointed that such a magnificent product has such a fundamental design-flaw. If I were marketing this product, I would eliminate the center detent-notch. The precision design of your product and its stiff springs are certainly enough to keep this joystick on-center.

I would also offer this product with a "stiff, medium, and light" spring option. Ideally, a joystick of this price should have all of these springs supplied to meet the needs of every kind of user.

So for now, I will continue to use my Thrustmaster "Attack Throttle" and "Fighter-X" joystick combination until I find a higher quality alternative.

Please let me know if you redesign the Hotas Cougar, and I will order one immediately.

Sincerely,
Tom Bigelow, -borg-
Rogue Gryffons - (WarBirds, Aces-High, WW2Online)

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For those of you who own high-end Thrustmaster joysticks, there is a wealth of modification and support information available at:
http://forums.frugalsworld.com/vbb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=22044

If one has the time and money, it's possible to bring the Hotas Cougar JoyStick up to an acceptable level of mechanical smoothness, but I think I'll wait for the manufacturer to make their product worth its substantial price.

Tom Bigelow, -borg-
Rogue Gryffons

jarbo · « **Reply #1 on:** July 03, 2002, 11:31:05 AM »

I really doubt TM will fix this problem for you. i am interested in the Cougar as well, but was unaware of this issue. Do you know how the "detent" is accomplished in the stick physically? If so, could it be modified with some metal working tools to remove the detent?

Jarbo

LoneStarBuckeye · « **Reply #2 on:** July 03, 2002, 11:42:16 AM »

There is no detent, per se. The stiffness of the springs simply makes it feel as if there is something like one. The mechanism is a fairly standard gimbal mechanism, not dissimilar to what is found in the CH or older TM sticks.

Xjazz · « **Reply #3 on:** July 03, 2002, 12:15:08 PM »

Hi!

I agreed with Borg.

I test shortly Cougar hotas last weekennd and Im very happy about that I didnt order this product to myself.

IMHO

The feeling of the rolling was like stiff three position switch with litle less stiff play at midle.

This semiready "Deluxe" hotas need way too much customer rework to get it work well concerning its prize.

Stiff spring is some kind a heaven? Maybe to somebody but NOT way like Cougar present it with tested stick (IMHO).

If I undestand right Cougar have QUALITY problem which they need solve a.s.a.p.

What comes durability and programing Im sure Cougar is the top one. Im happy with my X36 usb but lest see how Cougar do 6-12 months later. I wish its better..

BTW
F16 FBW hotas is realism in WW2 sim?

muckmaw · « **Reply #4 on:** July 03, 2002, 12:58:03 PM »

I disagree. I have the cougar for about a month now. At first, there was a detent and a certain amount of effort was required to make small Roll and Pitch adjustments. After about 20hours of use, the springs loosen up considerable, and I can make the slightest corrections now. I did not recalibrate, or make any mechanical changes to the stick. I had an X-36 from Saitek before this, and I am incredibly happy with my purchase of the cougar.

Once the springs loosen up a bit, it's am awesome stick.

GunnerCAF · « **Reply #5 on:** July 03, 2002, 04:47:21 PM »

I don't think the detent is as much of a problem as the default deadband. Just use the CCP to remove the default deadband on the x and y axis. I am amazed with the smoothness and percision of the Cougar around the center. It helps to RTFM or ask someone before you send it back

Gunner

Revvin · « **Reply #6 on:** July 03, 2002, 05:05:17 PM »

I'm very happy with mine and don't seem to have the problems you claim to have. I also find this personal crusade of posting the same message on as many boards as you can find rather childish.

Booky · « **Reply #7 on:** July 03, 2002, 06:27:58 PM »

Why do people go around and slam products when they don't know a thing about them. He calls it a "Fundamental design flaw" and yet in his own description says the center detent is too strong. Wow that sure is a serious design flaw isn't it?. Maybe ya should try useing it for more than 10 min and see how fast the springs loosen up.

Borg is a freaking idiot. He is anti TM or something. He only posted this same message in about 100 forums like he was seeking sympathy for his weak ars arms.

Booky

Mathman · « **Reply #8 on:** July 03, 2002, 06:41:08 PM »

Whether or not the CH products are better, I have no idea since I have never used them (well, except the CH Flightstick waaaay back in the day). I will say that it is much much better than the X36 I used for about a month before it took a dump. I will also say that the force of the springs was rather tough and a big problem when I started using the Cougar. However, now it is easy to use and I have had none of the problems that some people have reported. It is a great stick and I am glad I have one (as I am sure all the CH users out there are as well).

I am completely satisfied with mine and have no regrets about getting it.

Anyways, this stick is not for everyone (doesn't mean that it is better or worse), just as the X36 or CH stuff isn't for everyone. To each their own. I am glad we all have a choice.

AKIron · « **Reply #9 on:** July 03, 2002, 06:41:09 PM »

While there is at least one design flaw (the improperly aligned speedbrake switch) I wouldn't trade my Cougar for any other stick and I have tried several.

Gryffin · « **Reply #10 on:** July 03, 2002, 07:19:05 PM »

Borg,

there is no "detent" as such on the cougar, it just seems that way because the springs are so stiff, and it is only in the centre that all the spring forces cancel each other out.

I too almost returned my cougar when I first got it, not because of the perceived betent in the centre, but just because the springs were too damned stiff!!

However, it is about 150 odd hours old now, and the springs have softened up to the point where it just feels like a normal smooth joystick to me. I am not sure how much of it is because the springs have actually softened, and how much is because I got used to it, but either way I am glad I kept it.

Borg · « **Reply #11 on:** July 03, 2002, 10:44:06 PM »

Yes, I do have an agenda. I'm looking for a joystick that is smooth throughout its entire travel, and I fully understand the defensive reactions and rationalizations of some who have invested over $300 in this product.

Take another look at this link which has 9 long pages on it. The numerous posts describe fully the problems associated with this joystick and its design. These guys have devoted a lot of work, expense and thought into modifying and upgrading the Cougar into an almost perfect joystick. Their work continues, and they should be congratulated for their expertise and persistance. I just hope that Thrustmaster incorporates most of their improvements into its later redesigns of the Cougar

I would rather wait for the manufacturer to properly address these issues and modify its design before I spend almost $300 for it.

http://forums.frugalsworld.com/vbb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=22044

It's not really an issue of stick tension or stick force. I like a fairly stiff stick that duplicates the control forces present in real aircraft. What bugs me is the the uneven notchiness at the stick's center point. Just try to smoothly move this stick diagonally through its center point. If this is not a problem for you, then you could be quite happy with the present product.

On-center smoothness is quite important to me because I make most precise corrections from this center point, which is notchy and uneven on the Cougar. For me, this characteristic is totally unsatisfactory, and should not be present in a joystick of this price and quality.