Realistic...historical....

[Fatty]

This whole "one ping death" thing.  Ahh if only that were the case.  Given a 5% hit percentage, I'd be able to knock down 45 planes before running out of ammo.

[LLv34_Snefens]

 

Originally posted by Mox:
 
I play on a Pent III 800 256SDRAM (PC133) with a GeForce DDR on a full T1 with less than 10 users at anytime.  I have a switched 100mbit fiber attached connection to the router which is connected directly to Verio in Dallas.  I live in Dallas (about 20mins from HiTechs office).

Just a note that a connection with the speed of light to a computer 10000 miles away will need 53,3 millisec to reach it's destination. double that to get your ping.

Then consider you being chased by a plane where you are both doing 300mph at sea level.
That plane will seem 14 meters farther away than it really is. Then consider that one of you are having a bad connect (worse than the speed of light).

------------------
"Head-ons are for pilots that don't know what their next move should be"

Ltn. Snefens
RO, Lentolaivue 34

[This message has been edited by LLv34_Snefens (edited 05-31-2000).]

[Mox]

 

Originally posted by Fatty:
This whole "one ping death" thing.  Ahh if only that were the case.  Given a 5% hit percentage, I'd be able to knock down 45 planes before running out of ammo.

Heya Fatty being from Dallas I've spent a lot of time on 6th Street there in Austin.  The firm I just left had a office at 6th and Congress (Bank One building I believe) and I spent a lot of very late nights there.  Usually stayed at the Driskill (haunted hotel haha) or the Omni and always ate at Jazz or Louis's 109 (or whatever the number was.

Mox
TWC

[JoeMud]

<smerk on face> hehe gotta love it <pulls out the jug of moonshine and cranks up the 190>  

------------------
   
JG2 "Richthofen"

[This message has been edited by JoeMud (edited 05-31-2000).]

[This message has been edited by JoeMud (edited 05-31-2000).]

[Hristo]

 

Originally posted by F4UDOA:
Anyway I'll make a deal with AH. Put a F4U-4 in the game to match the 109G10's and FW-190D-9's in the game and get rid of the cannons in the -1C and make it a -1A. Later
F4UDOA    

Huh ? We have the Dora ?!?! Somehow I missed it  

G-10 has exceptional qualities, but is essentially a 1 on 1 plane, not good for multiplane arena.

Sorry, but I like it historical all the way. Personally, I will continue flying A-8, since it was most common 190 in mid 1944, which AH tries to represent. Even if A-5 offers certain advantages.

What annoys me is fantasy matchup where I fight 205s and wing with Nikis, for example.

Along with neon icons, where there is no place to hide. The guy who climbs highest wins the fight here, you can't escape from him.

BTW, the most common plane I see higher than me is the Hog, usualy at 25k. Never been there in 190.

Make no icon arena a lot of things will change. Some to worse, more to better.

[funked]

Well said Hristo.

[Cobra]

Mox,
<S>! to you for taking the time to do this analysis, and then taking the time again to detail it here.  I respect the folks here that do this, especially when its presented as well as this.  Hell, for the most part, I just kick the tires and light the fire, and for the vast the majority of the time, all's right with the universe when I'm AH..hehe.

Aside from all the other issues (real and imagined) when I'm flying formation with my squadmates, I still will say "wow" at times at the graphics.  I know its just eye-candy to some, and for the most part that just what it is, but it sure helps with the immersion factor.  


Anyway S! on the analysis.

Hristo...I'm with Funked..well said.

Cobra
Musketeer Escadrille

[Toad]

Mox,

Believe me, I'm not interested in flame wars. Mostly, that's just folks that like to read their own press releases.

I AM interested in any kind of testing and that's why I'm interested in your experiences.

In fact, I was so interested that my squaddie (Beemer) and I went into the TA and did some shooting with the F4U-1C and the FW.
We filmed from both ends.

It will take a while to get the films uploaded and an analysis done but here's a quick and dirty.

First, we were both on standard modems. Ranges generally showed a 100-200 yard difference, with the pursuer showing the closer range. This was true out to 1.4. There was no one else in the arena and that might be a factor but I'm not sure.

We flew the FW against the F4 & the FW as targets and then we flew the F4 against the F4 and the FW.

First test was with guns at 300 convergence and 300 yard shots. We put the target airplane in a 200 MPH speed climb to give a bit of planform and took shots from the 6. We DID NOT use MG on the FW...cannon only. (Although on the 1.0K test I did hose some MG at Beemer at the beginning. It's easy to hit with little holdover but he reported no damage after about 10 hit sprites. We then went on to cannons only.)

Basically, it took from 4-10 hits from EITHER the FW or the F4 to render the target plane incapable of flight. There were no "one ping" kills and there didn't seem to be that much difference in leathality between the FW and the F4. It was easy to kill in two short cannon bursts from either plane at this range. Perhaps 25-30 rounds expended for 4-10 hits and a kill.

We then tried the same thing but shooting at 1.0K and with convergence at 400.

Yes, you can get kills with either aircraft at that range. Of course, this is with a target in a 200mph climb and not maneuvering. For me, I simply put the pipper just under the range part of the icon and tripped short bursts.

The leathality was still about the same; it took perhaps 5-10 hit sprites to render the target aircraft incapable of flight.

The BIG difference is that it took about an entire ammo load from either plane to get that many hits. Due to dispersion, rounds were going everywhere around the target aircraft. A VERY FEW found their target, but they were just as leathal as they were at 300 yards from EITHER aircraft.

We'll get those films uploaded to the 13th TAS website and you guys can take a look for yourselves.

[leonid]

Mox,
Another thing to consider is effective evasives.  Start working on this.  I fly the La-5FN exclusively, and have spent a long time (since my WB days in the Yaks) perfecting my evasives, especially ones that cause an overshoot.  And that practice has paid off handsomely.

If a Zero can evade the attack of 15 F6Fs (ok, so he was a superb pilot), then evading one F4u-1c should be very doable.  And, in fact, it is.

Work on an evasive that causes an overshoot, because these type of maneuvers can really switch the positions radically.  Scissors & snap rolls come to mind, but your chosen aircraft will best determine the right evasives.

Good luck!


------------------
 
leonid, Komandir
5 GIAP VVS RKKA

"Our cause is just.  The enemy will be crushed.  Victory will be ours."

[This message has been edited by leonid (edited 06-01-2000).]

[Fury]

Please pardon if I am missing something here.

Is it possible to do an on-line controlled test by looking at your score before and after a test?  

It seems like comparing the difference between ordnance used/ordnance hit before and after the test, and comparing it to the film of *both* pilots, might be of some help?  This is assuming of course that the controlled test is two players flying level and one person shooting from the six.  It would be interesting to see what the system (score) says as far as hits vs. what both films show.

Fury

[Mox]

Toad,  I have a few questions for you on your testing last night.  

Did you use the FW with the 2x 20mm or the 4x 20mm?
Are you and Beemer in the same geographical area?  Same ISP?

One other thing to note about my testing, I tested with my 2 very similar systems side by side before I got the other connection types envolved I and got very similar results like you.  It appeared that the differences in connection speeds were where I was seeing the very odd hits and no damage stuff.  I tested with a convergence of 300 and 600.  I too saw a huge dispersion of the shells after about 600.

If I get some time in the near future maybe you me and Beemer could test this on a 3 way call so that we can all hear each others PC and see what the results are.  I’d guess that you and Beemer would see similar results based on your connections where I would see a much different perspective, unless of course HiTech found some problem and fixed it since I did my test.

Fury:  The main reason I started these test was because I kept getting hit sprites all over my enemies at a fairly close range, 600 or so and they would never go down.  I would always ask people “Did you take any damage?” and the usual answer was “no damage and no pings”.  I wanted to prove to myself and a few other friends that my gunnery was not THAT bad so I started the test.  While it was very hard to tell if the score web page was really calculating my hits, as best I remember I don’t think it was very accurate.  What I mean by that is:  I would write down my hit info on the web page then test and add the number of hit sprites I saw in a test session and compare it to the web page after the test session and the hit’s were more closely related to what my enemy (the slower connection) agreed upon than what my number showed.   I gave up quickly on trying this method of calculating hits.

Leonid:  I agree with what your saying and I’d like to think that my flying has gotten better since the days of this test.  I like the LA5 and I’d like to spend some time in the TA with you or one of your squadmates to truly learn how to fly that bird.  I got 2 3 kill fights in the LA5 just last night fighting Fatty and his boys on the deck at 17.   I fly all the birds but I really should just concentrate on one and learn it well.  

Just last night at base 3 I was 1 ping killed (wing gone and pilot wounded on a previously undamaged plane) from a HogC at 1.5 on my FE.  Not only am I accustomed to it happening to me on a regular basis but the friends I sometimes fly with on 3way or conference call (not RW) heard it and simply said “was that another 1 ping death”, because they heard a single ping on the phone and I was plowing a ditch.

With all the responses about how many pilots here don’t care too much about the HogC guns, it leads me to believe maybe they are not so bad for “most players”.    What I really need to do is dust off the old 33.6 Courier and play an entire tour of AH on the modem only and see if the result are the same.  If my results are the same then I’d need to build (I have lots of parts around) up a slower PC and use the modem to see if it is any different.

Mox
TWC


[This message has been edited by Mox (edited 06-01-2000).]

[RAM]

I will only say one thing here.

I only died once with one-ping-death versus a 190.

I have died TONS of times with one-ping-death against F4U1-C.

I dont count in these the "pilot kill" death, but a wing gone, a tail watching world, or my engine going to a communist riot.

For me that weights more than any test. That, and Pyro admitting that there is something weird with hispanos.

<RAM clouses his mouth and sticks it with glue in order for not to open it again in this thread>

[This message has been edited by RAM (edited 06-01-2000).]

[Toad]

 

Originally posted by Mox:
Toad,  I have a few questions for you on your testing last night.  

Did you use the FW with the 2x 20mm or the 4x 20mm?

We used the FW with the 4x20mm as that gun package most closely approximates the firepower of the F4U. We DID NOT use the MG's in the testing other than that one instance to see if they would hit at 1.0K.

 

Are you and Beemer in the same geographical area?  Same ISP?

No, I am in Kansas City and Beemer is near Edmunton, Canada.

 

It appeared that the differences in connection speeds were where I was seeing the very odd hits and no damage stuff.

I think you may be on to something here Mox. In all our shooting there was ONE instance of Beemer < FW shooter, 300 yds> seeing two hit sprites while I <F4 target, 375 yds> got NO indication or hit or damage. Otherwise, hits were pretty equally indicated on both ends for both players and we did reverse roles <as far as we could tell>.

Another thing to consider is that we had matched speeds at 200, so there was little closure or drift. That probably affected the range indications in a positive manner and possibly host hit reporting.

If I get some time in the near future maybe you me and Beemer could test this on a 3 way call so that we can all hear each others PC and see what the results are.

Absolutely! I am willing to help. I think we need more information on this to see if there really is a problem. There have been a lot of complaints with very, very little besides pure anecdotal "this happened to me in the MA but I have no film".

If we can document some of this stuff, it gives HTC a place to start. The other side of the story is that if we CAN'T document it maybe the complaints are without basis in fact.

It's a possibility. None of us want Pyro to program the flight model based on "historical anecdotes." We want hard flight test data and other "reliable" proven info.

I'm afraid I regard these "There I was in the MA, one turning, one burning and two shot away.." anecdotal player stories in the same way we all regard "historical anecdotes" with respect to flight model programming. In short, we need something better than that to base changes in the programming upon. We need recorded instances.

With all the responses about how many pilots here don’t care too much about the HogC guns, it leads me to believe maybe they are not so bad for “most players

I'm one of those. I mostly fly the -51 now but I've flown the HogC. If you are in the same neighborhood with an nme C, you better expand your SA envelope. I personally think the FW demands the same response. I don't consider myself "clear" unless I have 1.5K on one of these birds because either one can kill you with a single burst and range marks are unreliable. If you are not maneuvering with a FW or F4U-1C showing 1.0K back, he can kill you if he wants to. It's just a fact.

I don't get killed by the HogC or the FW too often because I don't give them the chance. If there's one above me, I get lateral separation. If there's one below me, I make sure I'm fast when I engage. When there's one co-alt, I turn away until I'm above him and fast. You don't have to be this careful with other planes that don't have the 4x20mm.

To me, this game is all SA. Push the envelope and you'll get killed. <but that's the fun part >



[This message has been edited by Toad (edited 06-01-2000).]

[easymo]

Please post film of any plane getting 1 ping kill.

[Hazed]

thanks for the threads people.
it is interesting reading others views...
I'd just like to restate that im not trying to moan just letting HTC know what my choice of how the game will go is more geared toward realistic/historical rather than simple/unhistorical  
look ive played flight sims for years and ive never wanted to match a sopwith with a me262...its not realistic even if fun for a few minutes it soon becomes tiresome....especially if you like to fly the sopwith  
some of my best sorties in AH have been the longer and more organised ones...please head us in that direction...imagine 20 bombers 10 escorts vs 40 intercepting fighters... these sorties are what really make me want to stay. if you agree say so...if not then tell me what you want  ....
personally i wont play free for all fighting for too long because after several months now i dont enjoy it so much.I cant wait for the mission planner and it is a great idea.
ok ill stop nattering on and just say thanks for replies all
Hazed