Author Topic: Combat Trim.  (Read 3101 times)

AKSeaWulfe

  • Guest
Combat Trim.
« Reply #30 on: September 04, 2000, 08:48:00 PM »
Ah okay, I misread then. Sorry about that! I thought 20 gs was a little high for a human to not be a bowl of jelly at the the bottom of his flight seat. :-)

Thanks for the reply!
-SW

funked

  • Guest
Combat Trim.
« Reply #31 on: September 04, 2000, 09:02:00 PM »
Mapping a joystick (with symmetric travel and forces) to a real stick (with neither feature) is always going to involve a compromise.

HT thanks for the explanation, and I'm eager to try it.



[This message has been edited by funked (edited 09-04-2000).]

funked

  • Guest
Combat Trim.
« Reply #32 on: September 04, 2000, 09:10:00 PM »
And yeah Pongo I noticed the icon change.  


Offline J_A_B

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3012
Combat Trim.
« Reply #33 on: September 04, 2000, 09:53:00 PM »
Hi.  I have been lurking around these boards for quite awhile, but never posted anything.  I tried AH a few times during Beta, but didn't stay because I didn't want to pay 30 bucks a month (AirWarrior costs 10 for similar gameplay)  Also, I don't like how I could not carry my name to AH, because AH doesn't allow names using anything but numbers or letters  (so "J_A_B" is impossible to use)

I am posting now, because I think some outside air might be needed here.

The "Combat Trim"  will not ruin this game.  It will not make it any more/less realistic.  It will simply be an optional feature, like padlock.

As for the arguments about reducing realism:

yes, constant autotrimming reduces realism.  I don't see how people can complain though, because Aces High is already unrealistic with trim.  

How it it realistic that a BF-109 can trim its ruddder?  A real 109 sure couldn't--they lacked rudder trim of any kind.

Why don't FW-190's get automatic pitch trim, like real ones did?  

Why can any plane in the game trim itself in flight?  The VAST majority of WW2 planes could only be trimmed on the ground, to a single speed.  To be realistic, most planes in AH should not be able to trim in flight AT ALL....instead, they should have an option in the hanagr to "trim for ____ speed"..which would then be the plane's trim speed for the entire flight.

On top of all this, "combat trim" may very well ADD to realism, not reduce it.

Think about it...

In those [few] planes which the pilot COULD trim in flight, trimming was done with little wheels.  Unlike in this game, the pilot did not lose his abilty to look around when trimming.  However, If I move my hand from my view buttins to trim, I can no longer look around...and losing sight of the enemy is not a good thing.  

I have a two-button K-mart joystick...no rudder pedals...no throttle except keyboard...and because of things like trim, this game puts me at a disadvantage, simply because I don't have super controls.

That is NOT realistic...contrary to popular belief, maintaining plane trim was not usually a factor in air combat--because [most] planes could not trim in flight.  SO, really, the ability to trim in Aces High reduces realism for the most part, not adds to it.

There is no single perfect way to model plane trimming without also modeling real-life forces..which is obviously impossible.  Different games, therefore, use various comprimises.  The game I play--AirWarrior-simply keeps the plane trimmed at all times, in all attitudes, for everyone.  Not exactly total realism, but its fair for everyone.

Aces High models trim, but adds an unrealistic means of controlling it.  A large part of the game has become how well you can control trim, which wasn't even possible (usually) in reality.

Adding "Combat Trim" will re-focus this game on flying skills, rather than [unrealistic] trimming skills.


Thanks for reading,

J_A_B

funked

  • Guest
Combat Trim.
« Reply #34 on: September 04, 2000, 09:58:00 PM »
 
Quote
Adding "Combat Trim" will re-focus this game on flying skills, rather than [unrealistic] trimming skills.

I think that's precisely the idea - nice post.

Offline Hangtime

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 10148
Combat Trim.
« Reply #35 on: September 04, 2000, 10:04:00 PM »
Damn.. Tuff one here. Here's my take on it:

Certainly; pilot workload will be diminished... for a newbie. Worry number one.. I wont be evading as many shots as I was. Newbie gun accuracy looks to get a big shot in the arm.  However, the rest of us just got our workloads increased... they put an in flight switch on it.

Pushing the other guy in a fight includes pushing his workload up to stay offensive,, soon as he gets behind the curve, he's defensive. If he don't use manual trims on and dialed in when he hits the extremes of the flight envelope he's gonna be at a disadvantage.

I can see using CT to get close to a guy in a fight; and when it gets to be time to get nasty; switching it off and dialing up the trims appropriate to the circumstance.  

E retention.. it's very mention, sends a thrill and a shudder up my spine. Big question is really here.. what FM's and to what extent?? I predict this change will be the most traumatic.. and the most appreciated. Maybe we'll see the looked for clearly discernable diffrence that was lacking between the various platforms in the verts vs flat turns. My money's on Pyro gettin it right..

Of course; the icon visibilty changes will be hugely appreciated... when we gettin that canyon arena back?  

WTG HTC..

Hang

 

The price of Freedom is the willingness to do sudden battle, anywhere, any time and with utter recklessness...

...at home, or abroad.

Offline leonid

  • Copper Member
  • **
  • Posts: 239
Combat Trim.
« Reply #36 on: September 04, 2000, 10:06:00 PM »
HiTech,

Very Cool  
ingame: Raz

Offline bloom25

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1675
Combat Trim.
« Reply #37 on: September 04, 2000, 10:45:00 PM »
Sounds pretty good to me actually.  



------------------
bloom25
THUNDERBIRDS

Offline Ghosth

  • AH Training Corps (retired)
  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 8497
      • http://332nd.org
Combat Trim.
« Reply #38 on: September 05, 2000, 12:17:00 AM »
Thanks for the explanation HT.

Can't wait to try it out.

Offline Torque

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2091
Combat Trim.
« Reply #39 on: September 05, 2000, 01:02:00 AM »
Ah....so the sky isn't falling after all.

like all those threads said lalalalalalalala.

Me personally I will try something before I go off deep end.

Btw what is this trim thingy?

Offline Hristo

  • Parolee
  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1150
Combat Trim.
« Reply #40 on: September 05, 2000, 01:34:00 AM »
Sounds good.

Offline Maniac

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3817
Combat Trim.
« Reply #41 on: September 05, 2000, 02:36:00 AM »
What ever happened to "if aint broke dont fix it" hehe.



------------------
AH : Maniac
WB : -nr-1-
Warbirds handle : nr-1 //// -nr-1- //// Maniac

Offline snafu

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 842
      • http://www.btinternet.com/~snaffers
Combat Trim.
« Reply #42 on: September 05, 2000, 03:22:00 AM »
Amazing how a post from one of the HTC team and all the doom & gloom threads dry up  .

Gotta say after reading Hitech's explanation I don't think we have anything to worry about. After all how many of the "Trim Lords" have nice pretty curves on the Stick graph (Just another crutch & totally unrealistic).

TTFN
snafu

Offline Duckwing6

  • Copper Member
  • **
  • Posts: 324
      • http://www.pink.at
Combat Trim.
« Reply #43 on: September 05, 2000, 03:27:00 AM »
just wondering what the FM chnage is going to do to the "relative aircraft performance" that we were used to ..

as Santa said .. the slow turning A/C HAVE to bleed the E of their bogies to the extend to make a tracking shot possible, especially with the Cal.50 equipped A/C like the F4U-1D and the P51 , where a snapshot won't get you far unless you're VERY VERY close.

Now if this Change is going to affect every FM ? are just a few Aircraft subject to change?

How will you bleed the energy of a spit or Yak , or any other fast accelerating aircraft that can breakturn out of your guns with minimal E loss and regain it's energy in a few seconds by merely unloading an accelerating?

For the Combat trim matter .. i don't really like it .. as i can't judge the impact it's going to have on Fast/slow transitions during fight .. but i fear that it will make a huge difference ....

DW6

Offline 1776

  • Nickel Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 434
      • http://Iain'tgotno.com
Combat Trim.
« Reply #44 on: September 05, 2000, 08:26:00 AM »
<looks at X36 and PCDash> Ok, I have the buttons bring on the CT!!!  

Looks interesting there,HT!!

[This message has been edited by 1776 (edited 09-05-2000).]