Combat Trim.

[Pyro]

Remember that the combat trim is not an auto-trim, it's just a system of trim presets based on your speed.  It's not designed to keep you perfectly in trim under all conditions, just to keep you somewhat close.  The presets can only really cover one power setting at a particular weight.  Conditions outside of that won't result in perfect trim, you'll have to still use manual trim if you want that.  The difference is that it keeps you in the general range.  

Another benefit of this system that I like is that it helps alleviate some inherent problems in making the aerodynamic models of the planes.  Trim range is exaggerated on most planes in AH.  It's not done intentionally but it's almost impossible to get trim, stability, handling, and post-departure characteristics balanced out against each other without something having to give.  Usually it works out that there is a greater change in trim than desired.  

As to this representing a change in our direction, sorry that's not the case.  We didn't come into this blind.  Our philosophy has been successful through the years, and I don't see it changing.  New things will come, changes will take place, and down the road we'll expand the game into entirely new areas, but the underlying philosophy will remain the same.  IMO, the only difference now is that we're able to come up with more refined solutions.  



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Doug "Pyro" Balmos
HiTech Creations

[Dnil]

Whats funny to me is, the only trim I use is X, shift x, and ctrl x.  I never use anything else, have never really needed it.  Some of my squaddies think I'm nuts but I tend to survive when I want to and usually kill when I want to.  I'm more concerned with the new E retention system, trim bah who needs it!

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Dnil---Skyhawk until I get Dnil back
Maj. 900th Bloody Jaguars
Part time aircraft restorer. www.kingwoodcable.com/jheuer

[Swager]

So this means less trimming as your speed increases??

In the 109 I constantly use the trim to keep that nose down.  Otherwise I have trouble "saddling up"  Plus I believe the 109 tends to roll to port.

If CT takes some of this manual trimming action away, Im all for it.  I do enjoy manual trimming the AC alittle.  A bit more personal with the AC you're flying.

With the CT, pilots that have a hard time steadying on target may kill more.  Ya see, I have no problem getting into position, my shooting just sucks!!    

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Swager
GeschwaderKommodore I/JG2~Richthofen~[/i]

"Damn.....I can't believe I missed that shot!!!"

JG2 "Richthofen"

[Ripsnort]

The older I get, the slower I get, the more trim I get....DOH!

[Minotaur]

Ah shucks!  

Seems to me that most players do not suffer from the "Paranoid Trim Syndrome".  I welcome this and welcome HTC's new ideas especially the one about disapearing ICONS.

Sounds cool!

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Mino
The Wrecking Crew

"hehehe...I like this thread squealing Bastids!"
SOB

[SFRT - Frenchy]

Maybe I'm off and I missread HT's post but I think that the auto-trim is a big step toward the easy mode.

I recall that most of the time I miss shots because my airplane is not correctly trimed and I can't stabilize my shooting on the target with the joystick. The nose is 'jinking up/down' because the stick get 'too sensitive' when my trim is not right.

Also, does auto-trim counters the torque effect and keeps the ball centered? (didn't got that part right). Because if trim is not only on the elevator but also on the 2 other axis hehehehe piece of cake, no more glory for a kill.

As the more E retention in turns, I will just have to relearn my habits of dogfighting, maybe I will run more in my P47 or maybe I will be able to do even more in it.

I'm looking foward to see it.

[indian]

To translate what Rip!! said he gets more trim hanging over is belt

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Tommy (INDIAN) Toon
Indians Home page were links to help pages can be found.
Indian's Homepage

[Toad]

There are obviously a LOT of people here who don't understand how trim works in a real airplane, particularly in some WW2 aircraft that did not even have pilot adjustable trim in all axis.

Andy Bush did some fine explaining over in

 http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/defaultframe.html

For those who are all worried about the new change, I suggest a slow, careful read of his work over in that topic.

As it is right now, Trim in AH is much more of a purely arbitrary "difficulty level" feature than anything to do with <ah! NOOO! not that word!!!> "realism".

Due to the way the flight model has been designed and implemented, I believe this new change will actually move us a bit closer to <gasp!> "realism".

Thus, I believe HTC's intent with Combat
Trim is to try and correct an abberation in the flight modeling system. Therefore, it is an improvement.

If that last statement gets you all upset, please re-read what Andy had to say about RL trim in the link above.

As for E-bleed, try this: take your favorite fighter up with 75% gas, get up to a "normal" cruise speed, roll into a 60 degree bank, level turn. If you are doing this right, a 60 degree bank level turn will be exactly 2 G's. Add power as necessary to hold entry airspeed. Any of these fighters should be able to go around that turn all day until they run out of gas without losing speed or altitude <in some you probably won't need full throttle to hold entry speed>. In other words, the thrust supplied by the engine is more than adequate to overcome the generated drag.

I think you'll find that in the present programming you will bleed speed rather quickly and eventually won't be able to hold level flight.

I think this is what HTC is trying to correct in V1.04 also.

This game isn't a destination; it's a journey. Everything here IS NOT perfect. However, improvements continue to be implemented.

So far, these guys haven't stumbled much when bringing out the next version. It's ALWAYS been better.

Those of you who want to bail out before you even see what they have created....the green light is on over the door.

I'm going to stick around and see what they made for us.

[Ripsnort]

 

Originally posted by indian:
To translate what Rip!! said he gets more trim hanging over is belt  

Hey! I resemble that remark, lately!  

The less hair I have, the more head I get!!
See !! (below)
 

[Robert]

im like a kid at christmas time. I WANT TO OPEN THE PRESENTS !!!  bring it on (1.04)

RWY

[Andy Bush]

I just don't understand the continued wrangling over trim. There must be other aspects of this sim where efforts at improvement would bring more and better results with much less carping.

One more time...RL pilots do not usually trim during aggressive BFM maneuvering. Why? Because in the time that it takes to fly the maneuver, most trim systems (cable and electric) do not operate fast enough to keep up with the airspeed changes that are occurring. (That and the fact that there were many other, more important, things going on that the pilot was concerned with.)

WW2 aircraft had trim controls that were manually operated, usually by the left hand. In an engagement, the pilot usually kept his hand on the throttle since the need for throttle changes was far more frequent than the need to trim any flight control surface.

The aileron and rudder trim controls were small knobs that were intended for occasional use only...as the need demanded. Aileron trim was set once, normally...and then not changed unless some weight redistribution had occurred to the wings (fuel tank imbalance or assymetrical external stores). Once climb or cruise power was set, the rudder trim was set for that condition and then left pretty much alone.

The pitch trim wheel was larger and easier to operate that the other two trim knobs. This was because pitch trim was changed more often during a mission...anytime a constant speed was going to be held for any appreciable time, such as climb, cruise, or letdown into the landing pattern. Depending on the type of aircraft, this pitch trim operated a trim tab on the elevator or moved the horizontal stabilizer itself.

These trim controls were not fine tuned during BFM. The pilot flew his aircraft 'in trim' by using the primary flight controls. Of these, the one most likely to be 'out of trim' was pitch, due to the magnitude of the airspeed changes encountered in typical BFM maneuvers. When this happened, the pilot just ignored the 'heavy' pitch stick forces.

The next most likely to see a need for correction was the yaw attitude of the aircraft. When an aircraft is experiencing a yaw displacement from the neutral position, that is called a slip or skid. The pilot sees this on his turn and slip indicator, heading indicator, and also most likely 'feels' it in the seat of his pants. The pilot corrects this by either trimming the rudder to center the turn and slip indicator or by pushing the rudder pedals in the appropriate direction. During BFM, he would use the pedals, not the rudder trim, due to the need for an immediate correction.

When is an out of trim yaw condition most noticeable in an engagement? Probably when trying to keep the gunsight on the target. If you find that your gunsight pipper is sliding off right or left of the target while you maintain a stable tracking attitude, it is most likely that your rudder is not trimmed properly (or your size 12 feet are inadvertantly tromping on the rudder pedals!!). If your gunsight slides opposite your bank angle, you are skidding. If the sight slides off in the direction of your bank, then you are in a slip.

In either case, make your correction with rudder...not rudder trim!

Andy

[Toad]

Well said, Andy (one more time! one more time!)

Thanks!

[Nath-BDP]

So, what Andy said is that pilots never trimmed their aircraft in BFM, they didn't have a 'combat trim' system, they flew their aircraft and kept it stable with stick movements.

Thus, combat trim is unrealistic.

What Andy said isn't positive from a realistic sim POV.

[This message has been edited by Nath-BDP (edited 09-08-2000).]

[Maniac]

I too wonder why all of the sudden they put so much effort in changing things that works without problems.

Regards.



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AH : Maniac
WB : -nr-1-

[funked]

Maniac - existing system does not work without problems.  Control surface travel limits are effected by trim at low speeds.  This is not the case in real aircraft.