Author Topic: F4U-4 / P51D Comparisons  (Read 833 times)

Offline Red Tail 444

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F4U-4 / P51D Comparisons
« on: July 11, 2002, 11:23:44 AM »
I am expecting this to be an interesting thread. I like both planes, I only wish the -4 didnt come at 50 perks...

read up... http://home.att.net/~historyzone/F4U-4.html

My preference? F4U-4 :)
Gainsie

Offline eddiek

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F4U-4 / P51D Comparisons
« Reply #1 on: July 11, 2002, 02:10:29 PM »
"Turning to dive acceleration, we find the F4U-4 and Mustang in a near dead heat. Both the P-47D and P-38L easily out distance the Corsair and P-51D in a dive."

Hhhmmm........it ain't that way in AH, is it now?  ;)

Offline Red Tail 444

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F4U-4 / P51D Comparisons
« Reply #2 on: July 11, 2002, 02:54:06 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by eddiek
"Both the P-47D and P-38L easily out distance the Corsair and P-51D in a dive."

Hhhmmm........it ain't that way in AH, is it now?  ;)


Last night, I was in a fight with a PJ and a Jug, at different times..I was in ther Hog-4. Both times, they tried to eventually dive out, and neither of them wound up putting much distance between them and me...we were fighting about 20k, with tiheir diveouts at about 15.

Side note...Gimme the 4X20MM cannon option in the Hog -4. When we do, the party's over, bigtime, you La-7 drivers! :)

Offline RightF00T

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F4U-4 / P51D Comparisons
« Reply #3 on: July 11, 2002, 05:40:55 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Red Tail 444

Side note...Gimme the 4X20MM cannon option in the Hog -4. When we do, the party's over, bigtime, you La-7 drivers! :)


Ahh Gainsie you'd just stall it in ; ).

Offline BUG_EAF322

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F4U-4 / P51D Comparisons
« Reply #4 on: July 11, 2002, 08:42:44 PM »
I like this part :



Over Europe, things were somewhat different. The Luftwaffe flew fast, heavily armed aircraft that were not especially suited to low speed turning fights. The Allies had in their inventory the Spitfire, which was very adept at turning fights. The Americans had the P-47, P-38 and P-51. All of which were very fast and at least a match for the German fighters in maneuverability. Especially the P-38 which could out-turn anything the Luftwaffe had and could give the Spitfire pilot pause to consider his own mortality.


:D

Offline Red Tail 444

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F4U-4 / P51D Comparisons
« Reply #5 on: July 12, 2002, 12:03:06 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by RightF00T


Ahh Gainsie you'd just stall it in ; ).


You referring to Wednesday night? I didnt stall it in...I got the screen freeze of death...and on that note...I want my 50 perks back for that, HiTech! :)

Offline Red Tail 444

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F4U-4 / P51D Comparisons
« Reply #6 on: July 12, 2002, 12:16:36 AM »
Here's one of my fav lines...

" there was nothing in western Europe that could hang with the F4U-4. Even when including the Soviets, only the Yak-3 could hope to survive a one on one with the Corsair."

Maybe she comes in at 50 perks to give the Luftwhiners and Spitweebles some face-saving :)

J/K  :)

Offline F4UDOA

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F4U-4 / P51D Comparisons
« Reply #7 on: July 12, 2002, 03:43:23 PM »
Red Tail,

That artical was written by C.C. Jordan. Better known on these boards as Widewing. I don't know where he got some of his information IE the dive results but it makes good reading.

My favorite F4U-4 story is this.

The following article is from "Naval Aviation News" from sometime
              during the early 50's.  The author is unknown at this time.
               
              YAK vs. CORSAIR
              It was all over in 10 minutes.  Two heavily loaded F4U-4's proved
              more than a match for four Russian made YAK's, a name made famous
              in World War II.
              Things started popping when an early morning reconnaissance patrol
              from the escort carrier Bataan were abruptly introduced to the
              much-touted Red jobs, near Choppeki Point off the west coast of
              Korea.
              Of the four Marine Corsairs launched in the group, two had been
              sent to escort a helicopter ordered to pick up a Corsair pilot
              from another flight who had bailed out because of engine trouble.
              The two remaining Corsairs continued toward their designated
              targets to the northeast.  The flight climbed for altitude over
              Hojang-do in open formation with the flight leader about 500 yards
              at 7 o'clock from his wingman.  It was just a routine combat
              patrol until...........
              The flight leader first spotted the enemy aircraft when the first
              two Yaks, either YAK-3's or YAK-9's, opened fire, sending a bullet
              through his Corsair aft of the cockpit. The Corsairs were at about
              2,000 feet when taken under attack by the YAK's, which came
              barreling in an altitude of 5,000 to the northwest.
              Flying in a loose right echelon the four enemy fighters made a
              right and then a left turn, at approximately 10 o'clock, toward
              the Corsairs and made a run on the flight leader.  Apparently, the
              Reds had not yet spotted the second Corsair.
              Scratch Three.  The second F4U pulled in behind the attacking
              YAK's and followed their No. 3 man, with their No. 4 plane at 7
              o'clock from him.  Following this the second Corsair broke away
              from behind the No. 3 man and dove to the left and below the No. 4
              man who was firing at him.  He then made a climbing 360 degree
              turn and opened fire an two of the enemy aircraft with unobserved
              results.  Tailing in at 4 o'clock on another enemy, the Marine
              flier opened fire, hitting the Red's tail, fuselage and wing.  His
              hits caused the starboard wing of die YAK to break off and the
              plane crashed and went up in a burst of flames.
              Meanwhile, the Corsair flight leader, upon being hit did a "Split
              S" to pick up speed and made a climbing turn to the left. Two
              enemy aircraft made firing runs from astern, but overshot and
              turned wide while he pulled in behind and returned fire on the two
              YAK's with unobserved results. While the flight leader was in a
              climbing left turn one enemy aircraft crossed in front of him from
              right to left.  At that instant a YAK was seen by the flight
              leader to crash into the ground and burn.  This was his wingman's
              kill.  Meanwhile, the YAK crossing the flight leader's nose was
              taken under fire and sent spinning into the ground smoking.  This
              second enemy aircraft crashed and burned about one-half mile west
              of the spot where the first YAK was burning.
              The flight leader turned to the left and headed eastward when he
              observed three aircraft flying ahead of him also heading east.  
              The wingman was pursuing one enemy aircraft, with the second enemy
              aircraft following to the left and turning right on his tail.  The
              flight leader called his wingman and told him to pull up as the
              YAK was on his tail.
              The wingman turned hard to the left and dropped his Corsair under
              and astern  opening fire on the YAK as it overran him.  His fire
              started the enemy plane smoking out of both sides of the cockpit
              from around the wing roots.
              The flight leader continued tailing the enemy lead plane and his
              opening fire started this aircraft smoking.  Attempting to evade
              the fire, the YAK pilot turned to the south, and then to the west
              but the pursuing fire caused the enemy plane to puff smoke.  The
              Red did a "Split S" and headed west.  Following through, the
              Corsair continued to tail in on him firing.  The enemy plane began
              smoking from both wings and the fuselage while fragments of the
              aircraft kept falling off.  Papers were seen coming from the
              cockpit.  Following this the pilot jettisoned his hood and then
              bailed out.  A few seconds later the YAK plunged into the water.  
              The pilot's parachute opened and he descended into the water,
              apparently unhurt.
              The two Corsairs then joined up and climbed to 6,000 feet,
              orbiting over the downed enemy planes location.  The helicopter
              previously ordered to pick up the ditched Corsair pilot was asked
              also to pick up the enemy pilot.  The section orbited this area
              for about 10 minutes and then headed south toward Changyon.
              The fourth enemy aircraft was last seen climbing east into the
              sun, smoking from both wing roots.
              A rough engine in the wingman's Corsair and smoke in the cockpit
              of the flight leader's aircraft forced the flight to return to the
              Bataan. The flight landed without mishap at 0820.
              Poorly Executed.  All the aerial action took place between 2,000
              and 3,000 feet.  This unexpected attack found both of the F4U's
              carrying a belly tank and a 500-pound bomb, or a napalm tank,
              which were not jettisoned until the combat was nearly over.  Each
              aircraft also was carrying a wing load of six HVAR rockets and two
              100-pound bombs which were not jettisoned until the flight headed
              for the ship.
              The enemy aircraft were identified as other YAK-3 or YAK-9
              fighters.  These low-wing Soviet built fighters and their versions
              are powered by in-line engines ranging from 1,085 to 1,580
              horsepower.  Maximum speed for the Yak prop fighter is 360 knots
              at 15,000 feet.  Armament consists of one 20 mm gun, hub-mounted
              and two 12.7 mm guns in the nose.
              The markings on the aircraft were white circles outlined in red
              with a red star in the center.  These markings were located on the
              fuselage aft and below the cockpit, and on the underside of left
              wing.  The aircraft were painted in camouflage that ran from
              silver to light green.
              It was the opinion of the two Corsair pilots that the attack by
              the enemy, with both numerical superiority and altitude advantage,
              was very poorly executed.   The Reds also had an opportunity to
              make the attack out of the sun, but didn't.   Instead they made it
              90 degrees to the sun.  Furthermore, the fact that all four enemy
              aircraft made the initial attack on the two Corsairs cast doubt on
              the enemy tactical wisdom.
              The air discipline of the enemy pilots was good as they
              effectively kept together, providing mutual support.  The Reds
              pressed home their attack with determination and did not attempt
              to leave the area until they were smoking from hits.  Their
              marksmanship, however, was poor on deflection shooting.
              The F4U-4, even when heavily loaded, apparently is more
              maneuverable than the YAK-3 or YAK-9 at speeds between 140 and 160
              knots.
              Moreover, the YAK fighters flown by the Communist pilots were
              considered inferior in speed and rate of climb to the F4U-4.  
              Maximum speed used by the YAK's was about 200 to 250 knots.  Most
              maneuvering after the first pass was below 200 knots. Since no
              effective evasive action was taken by the YAK pilots it is
              believed they lacked training or experience.


You can read more in the August issue of Flight Journal.

Offline Innominate

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F4U-4 / P51D Comparisons
« Reply #8 on: July 12, 2002, 03:49:07 PM »
Is the f4u4 the only plane in AH which can be put into an unrecoverable spin?

Offline HFMudd

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F4U-4 / P51D Comparisons
« Reply #9 on: July 12, 2002, 04:12:51 PM »
Nah, if have the proper skills like me, you can put any of them into an unrecoverable spin. ;)

Offline J_A_B

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F4U-4 / P51D Comparisons
« Reply #10 on: July 12, 2002, 04:21:35 PM »
Why they compare the F4U-4 to the P-51D is a mystery to me.  The F4U-1D was the P-51D's counterpart; the counterpart to the F4U-4 should be the P-51H.  

Furthermore, that article fails to look at the aircraft in the context of the jobs they were used for.   Range in patricular is barely mantioned at all, even though in reality range is what made the P-51 so important.  The F4U might well be a better performer than the P-51, but that's of little use if the Corsair can't reach the target!  

J_A_B

Offline Kevin14

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F4U-4 / P51D Comparisons
« Reply #11 on: July 13, 2002, 07:05:43 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by HFMudd
Nah, if have the proper skills like me, you can put any of them into an unrecoverable spin. ;)


Lol

Offline GRUNHERZ

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F4U-4 / P51D Comparisons
« Reply #12 on: July 14, 2002, 03:49:19 AM »
"Since no effective evasive action was taken by the YAK pilots it is
believed they lacked training or experience."


So here's what I say....

The Bf109G6, even when low on E, apparently is more
maneuverable than the N1K2J or Spitfire at speeds between 140 and 160 knots.

BTW this was written by GRUNHERZ better know on these boards as GRUNHERZ.  :p

And this must be true because I have outmanuvered and shot down scores of toejam poor pilots flying their idiotic Nikis ans toejamfires and trying to turn with me.   :rolleyes:

I thought you were the facts and tables and charts guy F4UDOA, I guess even you keep some "romance novels" around. :)

Offline Red Tail 444

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F4U-4 / P51D Comparisons
« Reply #13 on: July 14, 2002, 09:53:31 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by J_A_B
Why they compare the F4U-4 to the P-51D is a mystery to me.  The F4U-1D was the P-51D's counterpart; the counterpart to the F4U-4 should be the P-51H.  
J_A_B


The Corsair could be launched from a mobile platform (CV) and therefore range was not as critical than the pony.  The Hog-4 was to be designated as a strike plane and Kamikaze killer , with the Bearcat replacing her as the fighter in the PTO.  We know the rest of the story...

Regarding the Pony-H, I would like to know more about its performance, wouldnt be a bad addition to the arena, but no on has ever mentioned it on the boards, to my knowledge.

Either way, I'd live to match up with one in the Hog-4.

Gainsie

Offline F4UDOA

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« Reply #14 on: July 14, 2002, 11:04:18 AM »
Whoa!!

Red Tail,

The F8F never replaced the F4U on carriers. The F8F was considered an short range intercpetor and the F4U a fighter bomber. On the contrary many F8F squads were re-equiped with F4U's before Korea. The F8F actually replaced the FM-2 aboard carriers.

Grunherz,

I am a chart and data guy. However when 2 F4U-4 get jumped by  4 Yak-9's and the F4U's get 3 confirmed and one probable it is a good story. Especially considering the F4U's were carrying 2,000lbs of bombs and rockets the whole time. Not bad for a Hog?