Stick force and pilot fatigue

[garrido]

Hello guys:

It seems that the force that a pilot does on joy in 50 AH this limited lbs.
I propose the following thing:
in setup a bar graduated between 25 and 75 is created lbs of force, that this directly related to the fatigue of the pilot (including the entrance in blackout and redout) in such a way that to less lbs of pressure in the Stick the airplane moves but slowly but the fatigue of the pilot is smaller also, if it chooses but force of stick the speed of answer of ailerons, will be but fast rudder and elevators, but also greater will be the accumulated fatigue, as it is accumulated entered blackout/redout and use of sticks with greater or smaller force the fatigue of the pilot wrath in increase, until for this reason but slow, asi can be given a little but realism to the game.
 The same podria to take control of the wearing down of the motor.
 She is one devises, surely that to you happens something better to them.


 A greeting  
 


 SUPONGO


Hola:

Parece que la fuerza que un piloto hace sobre el joy en AH esta limitada a 50 lbs. propongo lo siguiente:
en el setup se crea una barra graduada entre 25 y 75 lbs de fuerza, que este directamente relacionada con la fatiga del piloto (incluyendo la entrada en blackout y redout) de tal manera que a menos lbs de presion en el Stick el avion se mueva mas lentamente pero el cansancio del piloto sea menor tambien, si elige mas fuerza de stick la velocidad de respuesta de alerones, timon y elevadores sera mas rapida, pero el cansancio acumulado tambien sera mayor, a medida que se va acumulando entradas en blackout/redout y uso de sticks con mayor o menor fuerza el cansancio del piloto ira en aumento, hasta que por esta razon la respuesta del avion sea cada vez mas lenta, asi se puede dar un poco mas de realismo al juego.
Lo mismo se podria hacer con el desgaste del motor.
Es una idea, seguro que a ustedes se les ocurre algo mejor.

Un saludo

Supongo

[Furious]

Interesting idea, difficult to sell here.

Knowing this I still would like to add to the concept.

Fatigue would increase during all times of activity, especially during high G loading.  Periods of inactivity would decrease fatigue.  During the heat of battle, when your strength is waning, one could press the A button for a shot of adrenaline that would temporarily increase strength.  During the adrenaline rush your fatigue is advancing at an even greater pace than normal.

Instead of a graphic display, the fatigue could be indicated by grunting and panting.  Or maybe it could be indicating by a blurring around the edges of the screen caused by the sweat in your eyes.

…anyway, interesting idea.

F.

[AKSWulfe]

pilot fatigue shouldn't be modelled until computer programs can digitally render each players build and strength.

That way the playing field won't be level in the stamina department.

The only thing "pilot fatigue" modelling does, at this point, is make it easier for BnZ pilots to stay fast and get kills because they keep the TnB guy turning and wasting his energy (his own energy, not the plane's energy).
-SW

[Furious]

I'm bored, so I am going to argue with you SW.    

 

 That way the playing field won't be level in the stamina department.

Why shouldn’t it be level?  Are you saying that if this was modeled those players with physical handicaps should be at a disadvantage in the game?  No two aircraft produced are identical, yet in our game all Fw190a5’s, all P-51D’s, all Spit IX’s have the same exact performance. (assuming similar load-outs)

So many people here say, “Its not the plane it’s the pilot”, well the pilot gets tired.

I am not looking for a BnZ advantage over the TnB folk. Higher speeds would require greater still stick forces increasing fatigue.  I like it to be a challenge.  Most of my fights are on the edge of blackout anyway, and this feature would effect me in the extreme. I would like to see it though, as it would make the game more interesting and captivating, as would a great many other features we are not likely to see.

F.


“for discussion purposes only”

[AKSWulfe]

I never said anything about disabilities. I don't know why you played that card, that's pretty rediculous.

However, I would like to think that I would/should have an advantage for myself being physically fit and lifting weights over someone who has a beer gut the size of a trash can and if he pulled too many Gs it would shrink him to a midget.

I don't see how modelling pilot fatigue would make this game any better.

"Crap, my virtual pilot is tired and I can't move my stick anymore!"

Sounds like nothing but fun there.
-SW

[Mathman]

Based on the way people are discussing it, it seems as if this will just be some kind of resource to manage, much like fuel, WEP, ammo, etc.  I can just see people saying, "I woiuld love to help you, but my pilot is tired and needs to return to base for a nap."

Imagine the whining that would result should this ever be introduced.  Plus, are the pilots all the same?  I mean, Americans were, generally, much bigger than Japanese during WW2.  Does this make them able to hold more g's or less g's?  Since the later periods of the war, the Axis pilots were less experienced, does that mean that the pilots of the late-war LW pilots don't have the same ability of the late-war USAAF/RAF/VVS pilots?  This could be cool, if it were done in a way that would make everyone happy, but that isn't going to happen.  This is a potential can of worms that is best to be left closed until there is some way to address the multiple issues that this would bring out.

<edit> Also, until EVERYONE has forcefeedback sticks, chairs, monitors, etc., this would just be more or less a novelty feature that people might like for about a week before they are begging to have it removed.  <edit>

I also think we can all agree that there are several things that need to be done/looked at/updated/added before this is even really considered.

Just my 2/5 of a nickel's worth.
-math

[ 08-06-2001: Message edited by: Mathman ]

[funkedup]

If you want to make a good model of pilot fatigue, get somebody with experience.  I know of a few jet fighter and acro jockeys who play this game and HTC should hit them up for info if they haven't already.

Relating to the player's fitness level would be pretty silly though.  Kind of like playing a computer hockey game where my player skates like I do (falls down all the time) LOL!  

[AKSWulfe]

Funked, that's not my point.

My point is: Why would we model pilot fatigue? It only does one thing, to level the playing field and make people who like to yank 'n bank in furballs suffer while the guys who like to go fast, go straight and turn left (Nascar) don't get hit with large penalties.

I brought up the point of each player's relative fitness level for that sole reason. Why penalize a guy who likes to keep his plane in the pit with the other guys, fighting his way out if his body could in fact hold up to that kind of punishment for more than 20 minutes?

The period of time that a dogfight lasts here is less than 20 minutes and probably closer to 5 to 10 minutes.

You honestly think a pilot will be exhausted in that amount of time?

Maybe, if he hasn't had any excercise in 50 years.
-SW

[Dmitry]

The period of time that a dogfight lasts here is less than 20 minutes and probably closer to 5 to 10 minutes.

You honestly think a pilot will be exhausted in that amount of time?

Maybe, if he hasn't had any excercise in 50 years.

Definitely YES if a pilot constantly pulls over 6 G.... like some of our UFO friends     Actually I would like to have option Black Out to be removable during Offline, therefore i would be able to see if N1K2J can make a 10G turn or not  

[funkedup]

SW that's not a bad point.  I would model it just to be thorough, but in a WW2 fighter which can only sustain at most 3 g, it's not going to be a big factor.

[garrido]

Hello friend's:

moan to say it, but seems that all the ideas that occur to match of this game great hit the do-nothing policy of which they have complied to.
 The pilot of BnZ sufria fatigue, but I imagine that the one of TnZ if too much G's even used but.
 Remember the combats of Saburo Sakai and as it were gotten tired of as much turning and turning.
 Not to the do-nothing policy.

 A greeting

  SUPONGO

Hola amigos:

lamento decirlo, pero parece que todas las ideas que se dan para hacer de este juego un gran juego chocan con el inmovilismo de los que se han acomodado a el.
El piloto de BnZ sufria fatiga, pero imagino que el de TnZ si usaba demasiadas G's aun mas.
Recuerde los combates de Saburo Sakai y como se iba cansando de tanto virar y virar.
No al inmovilismo.

Un saludo

SUPONGO

[miko2d]

Originally posted by SWulfe:
I don't see how modelling pilot fatigue would make this game any better.

 Bf109 - 40 pounds of stick force/G. Extremely narrow cockpit. No rudder trim and constant need to push with one leg.
 P47 - 7 pounts of stick force/G. Spaceous cockpit. Very well-balanced, trim available.

 So the at high speeds, especially at altitude a pilot in P47 was rutinely able to outturn a pilot in Bf109 and in a short time exaust him.

 Ever tried to aim a gun weighting 60 pounds?
 I could loan you my 64-pound longbow and let you try a shot. I could hit a quarter at 20 yards but after 6 shots in a row I needed fifteen minutes break.
 I can shoot my wife's 40 pound bow indefinitely.

 Even simpler, try to run a mile with 7-pound load. Then try one with 40-pound load.
 After the run try some precision activity, like playing a piano or target shooting.
 I bet the results before and after the run will be quite different due to fatigue.

 miko

[Nifty]

put pilot fatigue in a "historical/realistic" arena, leave it out of the MA.  It can go along with your no extra visual cues.  

[AKSWulfe]

Honestly, if you are going to ask me "have I lifted"...

I worked in a hardware store, my main job was lugging around 80lb concrete bags.

I lifted around 30-40 in 2 hours every couple days because we had a contractor come in who would buy two truck loads.

So, what was the question?
-SW

[batdog]

You train swulf? Wieght lifting that is. I do... always wondered if it would be an advantage to be bigger or smaller when pulling G's...

xBAT

[ 08-07-2001: Message edited by: batdog ]