Author Topic: Stick force and pilot fatigue  (Read 1502 times)

Offline Pongo

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Stick force and pilot fatigue
« Reply #60 on: August 09, 2001, 11:21:00 PM »
True its different
but to what extent is it different becuause there is no real concept of fatigue
Can we not have fatigue because its different?
Or is it different because we dont have fatigue(amongst many other things)

Offline Karnak

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Stick force and pilot fatigue
« Reply #61 on: August 09, 2001, 11:47:00 PM »
Sakai also said that he tired easily after being wounded, not just during that fight.  He insinuated that he would just get tired.

Just before the fight will the F6Fs he had, with minimal manuvering, shot an F6F down.  After doing that he had suddenly felt tired and had pulled off to rest.

He watched a Zero chase a Hellcat, then a Hellcat get on the Zero, then Zero on Hellcat, Hellcat on that Zero and finally a Zero finishing the line.  He said that he was cursing the pilots on both sides for not checking their 6s by the time the last aircraft had joined.  Only the Zero at the end survived.

He then mistook the formation of F6Fs for Zeros, went to join up and ended up in a fight with them.

His description of the fatigue that bult up during the fight was that it was getting harder to roll and turn the Zero as fast as he had ealier.  When he started he was pushing his A6M5 nearly to the point of a wing failure.  He was sweating alot and the sweat was getting into his good eye.  In the end he managed to get into his base's AA fire and that drove the F6Fs off.

Due to his limited vision he was always rolling and breaking to the left, he knew it was a weakness, but he couldn't see to the right.  He said that if he'd been in one of the Hellcats the Zero would have died, but the American pilots never lead a shot.  They always just shot at where the Zero was now.  He was impressed with the Hellcat (that was his first fight with them) but thought that those pilots didn't do it justice.

His Zero was barely hit, or maybe not at all, in that fight.  Saburo Sakai is also one of the two Axis aces that I know of who never lost a wingman.
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Offline Serapis

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Stick force and pilot fatigue
« Reply #62 on: August 10, 2001, 08:18:00 AM »
Quote
Due to his limited vision he was always rolling and breaking to the left, he knew it was a weakness, but he couldn't see to the right. He said that if he'd been in one of the Hellcats the Zero would have died, but the American pilots never lead a shot. They always just shot at where the Zero was now. He was impressed with the Hellcat (that was his first fight with them) but thought that those pilots didn't do it justice.

Kinda helps explain why the differences in armament comes into play in AH (where pilots have been leading targets for a decade or more in many cases) compared to RL where a zero deflection from 200-300 yards was standard to get kills.

Charon

Offline StSanta

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« Reply #63 on: August 10, 2001, 10:02:00 AM »
Hm, we have generic planes, i.e every flown 51D is the same.

For the sake of modelling we could have a generic pilot in terms of stamina. I think that extended periods of time being subjected to high g's WILL wear you out.

Saw a program on Discovery where some US pilots went through the centrifuge to establish their tolerance. One pilot was so drained after his 30 seconds run that he had to wait til later in the afternoon to try again.

About all the pilots said that even short periods of time were totally draining their energy.

FWIW, muscle mass is important in fighting g's - when you squeeze yer muscles, the blood vessels essentially close themselves down or something like that. Even more important is the distance the heart needs to pump the blood - one reason why female fighter pilots in general have a good g tolerance despite being at a disadvantage in terms of muscles.

At any rate, *some* kind of fatigue thing would be good. Not necessarily so much that it puts turn fighter pilots at a distinct disadvantage, but something that just at least introduces this very real concept into the sim. It's been done in other sims quite succesfully, and I really don't see why someone resists the introduction of it.

Sure, it's a game. Sure, there are concessions being made. But this thing would add value without really affecting game play in a negative way - quite the contrary. I'm all for it.

Offline Toad

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Stick force and pilot fatigue
« Reply #64 on: August 10, 2001, 10:10:00 AM »
IIRC, the book said his ground crew didn't find a single hole in his Zero after the fight with 15 Hellcats. A tribute to his skill as a pilot, without question. A knock on the ability of the Hellcat squadron as well.  ;)

Pongo,

My _personal_ observation is that people seem to want it both ways.

If you have engagements "just like WW2" fatigue is not going to be a big player. As I mentioned above, there are very few examples of "long duration" fights like Sakai had with the Hellcats. Therefore, fatigue from 30 minutes of non-stop dogfighting just didn't come into play.

Most of the engagements that you read of consist of a pass or two or at most 3 or 4 minutes. Many of the flyers never engaged on a lot of their missions, particularly those on the Allied side. Isn't there a saying somewhere that 5% of the pilots did 90% of the killing? Are we going to model that?

Anyway, in such common, low-intensity combat situations, my opinion is that fatigue is just not a major factor.

OTOH, it's true that if you turned and burned for 40 minutes straight fatigue would probably become a player. This is pretty common in the MA; you climb out a bit, engage and continue to engage in a hot area until you die or land for more gas and bullets. So in this event, fatigue becomes a player. However, one is still faced with the fact that this is very highly atypical for "just like WW2" air combat.

So, do we add fatigue and mandate "real" WW2 style engagements? That is, one short fight per mission on most missions?

Or do we allow multiple non-stop engagements without fatigue, thus making each individual engagment within the mission closer to what probably happened in WW2 with respect to being relatively "fresh" for the engagement?

Or do we allow multiple non-stop engagements with fatigue, making the atypical number of engagements subject to what will essentially be an arbitrary (but tweakable) fatigue penalty?

Not a very clear-cut situation is it?
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Offline jedi

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Stick force and pilot fatigue
« Reply #65 on: August 10, 2001, 10:38:00 AM »
There's always the "time factor" to be considered.  In pilot training we routinely did formation acro of 3-6 G for up to 10-15 minutes at a time.  We would do this routine usually twice in a 75-minute sortie.  I don't remember ever feeling tired during the mission, but definitely felt worn out at the end of one.

If a "fatigue factor" IS added, it needs to be "abstracted" IMO to account for what it is you're trying to simulate.  If the "normal" AH dogfight lasts 12.3 minutes, then fatigue should not be a factor for at least 10 minutes.  Even then, fatigue should only SLIGHTLY affect actual aircraft control.  You only want a small advantage to be created because of this.  Having one pilot in "full" control and the other unable to move because he's "tired" would be completely bogus.  Having one guy able to get his full 90-degrees per second roll rate and having the other guy only "strong enough" to get 85 degrees would be more believable.

The G-tolerance thing is actually a different question, because a "generic" pilot will most definitely have his ability to withstand extended, repeated high-G degrade fairly quickly, in terms of how long he can resist blacking out and how quickly his vision will be affected.  IMO this would be far more likely to affect the length of a fight (and who wins) than any "tired arms" would.  If I can pull 6 Gs and you're blacking out at 4, you're dead  ;)

Offline Rude

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« Reply #66 on: August 10, 2001, 12:16:00 PM »
I'm always tired...does this mean that I won't be able to fly AH anymore?

Offline Jekyll

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Stick force and pilot fatigue
« Reply #67 on: August 11, 2001, 09:26:00 PM »
"Dogfighting was hard work.  You needed strong arms and shoulders.  Those controls weren't hydraulically operated, and at 400mph they became extremely heavy.  Without cabin pressurization, flying at high altitude wore you out.  And so did pulling Gs in sharp turns and steep dives. ... After a couple of minutes of dogfighting, your back and arms felt like you had been hauling a piano upstairs.  You were sweaty and breathing heavily.  Sometimes you could see a German's exhaustion from the way he turned and maneuvered - another advantage if you were stronger".

[ 08-17-2001: Message edited by: Jekyll ]

Offline Pongo

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Stick force and pilot fatigue
« Reply #68 on: December 15, 2003, 10:49:33 AM »
Used to have some really cool discussions on this board.
I still think that AH battles might be more realistic with fatigue in the mix.

Offline Kweassa

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« Reply #69 on: December 15, 2003, 11:25:33 AM »
Many points are variable, Grun, but I think there's room for certain aspects rendered within the game which may enhance the gameplay.

 For instance, the recent patch of IL-2/FB modelled in pilot wound factor - since the pilot itself has sort of a 'damage model', when you get hit in the arms, immediately the effectiveness of stick control falls down - can barely push more than 2Gs, and rolls also suffer.

 It really is a terrifying experience to find that you were hit in the arms at high speed with a large bank angle, and can't exert enough pressure to turn your plane over and reduce speed to bail out. You watch in horror as the plane begins to nose down and gain even more speed in a death dive, and you can't steer it level, reduce speed, or even bail out because of such high speeds. Bam! Spectacular crash! It's really heart pumping.

 I think some factors can be known and implemented empirically - since there will be real life fighter pilots in the community who do have experience of flying at high Gs - just interview one of them, assume his physique as the 'standard', and implement some of the issues and infos from him. Like, how much slower, or harder it gets to turn your head during a high G maneuver...

 Other factors, such as fatigue from continuous movement, can probably use other bits of gameplay devices seen in arcade games - not necessarily meaning the implementation is arcadish, just meaning that the system itself is derived from how some arcade games handle such factors.
 
 Like, there could be an invisible, internal 'guage', or a 'stamina bar', or a 'stamina point' set to something like "100" for all pilots. Gentle inputs cause no draining of the bar/points, sudden transitions from left to right can maybe cause what, five points to fall?

 When the stick action stops and returns to a 'gentle level', the bar/point can recharge at a certain rate. The harder the stick pressure gets, bar/point decreases at a more faster rate. This could be coordinated into something like allowing pilots to continuously maintain very high-G pulls or exert high stick pressure for about 5 minutes continuously, in theory. (I have no knowledge on how much a 'standard' combat pilot can retain high stick pressures, though. Something like that can probably be tested in physical examinations or something )

 If the pilot really pushes himself and his plane to continuous high stick pressures or high G turns, the bar/point will eventually fall down - with each 'negative' point starting to take bad effect on control authority, until it recharges.(Maybe.. something like each negative point starting to cause -0.5% control authority or something??)

 Also, the speed of the 'bar/point' falling down, can be different according to planes - planes with good high speed control authority will enjoy its benefits to the pilot, while bad performers such as Spits or 109s, can make the pilot drain a lot more 'stamina' or something..

 Anyhow, I don't think such a thing's gonna be implemented in AH, and even if it is, it is gonna take a long painful process of tweaking.. but I don't think the concept itself is impossible to implement.

Offline lazs2

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Stick force and pilot fatigue
« Reply #70 on: December 15, 2003, 12:14:51 PM »
another interesting point to the saki fight was that no hellcats were in the area at the time acording to the navy.    No allied pilot has said that he was involved in this fight.   That might be one explanation for the lack of bullet holes in saki's plane.

I have not seen any reports of any pilot who could not fight because he was too tired to move the stick after 2 or three minutes of combat.    I have heard many reports of pilots who landed and realized they were dead tired and they were soaked in sweat to the point of their leather jackets dripping sweat.

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Offline jodgi

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Stick force and pilot fatigue
« Reply #71 on: December 15, 2003, 01:14:48 PM »
I say it can't be done in a reasonable manner, though the principle of idea is interesting.

Imagine the whines from the furball lobbyists!

I understand that the FW190 had light and balanced stick loads in addition to the pilot sitting slightly reclined (F16 style).

What could be done, and has been suggested, is to raise the blackout threshold when flying the 190.

There are still many subtleties within the planeset that could be modelled before thinking about pilot fatigue.

Offline Toad

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« Reply #72 on: December 15, 2003, 01:37:53 PM »
What's clear it that most of the "fatigue" promoters posting since Pongo punted the thread either haven't read the whole thing or simply choose to remain uninformed.
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Offline Samiam

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Stick force and pilot fatigue
« Reply #73 on: December 15, 2003, 01:39:44 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Rude
I'm always tired...does this mean that I won't be able to fly AH anymore?


I'm kind of with you, Rude. I'm not sure I need for the game to model anything for me. After an hour or so of working in and out of a really good furball, I'm usually ready for a nap.

It's a good thing someone always comes along to sink the CV or pork the fuel so that I don't get too fatigued.:rolleyes:

Offline Guppy35

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Stick force and pilot fatigue
« Reply #74 on: December 15, 2003, 01:41:27 PM »
Supposadly Douglas Bader had a higher G tolerance, later black out limit cause of his missing legs.  Can we model him so we can turn tighter in Hurri's, Spit Is and Spit Vs without blacking out? :)

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