Question for Tony Williams

[RRAM]

Heya

As an expert in this matter I think you're the one to be asked  this kind of question.

First of all please download this film:


http://81.19.238.131/demo/clip0001.mpg


Its 22 Meg. A bit big but well worth the download.


Now the questions; I think is pretty evident. In that film me see lots of air to air fights, and air to air firing. I think is plain to see the enormous difficulty of hitting with the weapons both from pure 6 positions, and from deflection shooting.

Also there are several PURE six attacks on buff BOXES (so the argument of the bomber having positions kicked out is not appliable, because there are lots of bombers) both from 190s and 110s in that film. THe planes seemed to get out of those attacks quite OK.

The contrast in what that film shows and what AH portrays as air to air gunnery is, I'd say, quite significant. The planes in AH Seem way too stable in contrast of what I see in those films. Also, here to hit seems much easier than in that film.


So the questions are simple:


1- do you think that AH has -in your opinion- an accurate simulation of air-to-air gunnery in World War two?.


2- do you find bomber gunnery in AH near what could be expected from a WWII bomber?



P.S. those are honest questions more related with true knowledge of WWII air to air combat than with AH itself. I use just use AH as comparison.

Thanks in advance

[Hooligan]

RAM:

Tony doesn't fly AH.

Hooligan

[Pongo]

How difficult can it really be to hit Ram..
we both know of German pilots that got kills with less then 10 rounds of 151/20 ammo... consistantly.
I bet their gun films look alot different then those films.
Also the bombers that were really being honed in on in those films where mostly alone. they had likly allready been hit and seperated from the formation and likley their tail and ball gunners where dead when the film started.
Sitting right in the wake of a big bomber sure seems to bounce the 110s arround alot but not the 190s as much.
The long turning fight with the P47 was a great endorsement of the shooting in AH. It looked just like a flat fight in AH looks. and the hit looked just like a solid hit in AH looks. I bet the effect was the same too.
Thanks for some great footage that endorses the gunnery model in AH!

[minus]

well some 1 before tryed with some funy math formule persuade buf guns eficienty   like sped of the bulets and plane speed, well then  just think what  diference on aiming wil have 1 mm nose elevation   at 100 m distance ?  or even beter at 800 m  distance , the 50 calibers just like snipe

planes in AH have some nose bounce , but it daz not give the vibration  feling of real plane , yes plane can fly realy straith at wery wery high  spends but event there not for long time , maybe 10 sec  no more,  i know many people cant even withstand wind layers so i imagine the whine if prop wash , bufeting ,turbulences  and portance parasites modeled  but i realy wish them 1 day to see !!!!!

definitely buff guns need some rework , not becose i got be kiled with them
 , actualy not see buf last month in AH  ,but becose it will be more realistic  also wish   tune down dramaticly Typhon performances  , they jsut fly to well to high same for  La 7

 typhie was used with suxces on ground atack , but mostly with rocket and why they was sucesful ?? becose of speed to have some chance evade  DCA and AAA fire !

[MANDOBLE]

Originally posted by minus
tune down dramaticly Typhon performances  , they jsut fly to well to high same for  La 7
 typhie was used with suxces on ground atack , but mostly with rocket and why they was sucesful ?? becose of speed to have some chance evade  DCA and AAA fire !

I must to agree with you, cant understand the typh performance in this game. Excelent turner, excelent climber, more excelent zoom climber, why was it supposed to be only good as an attack plane? Which engine and weight have our typh version?

[-ammo-]

agree with what? Is he saying that the typhoon is overmodeled?

[vatiAH]

He got shot down by Vulcan tonight

[Tony Williams]

As Hooligan said, I don't fly AH (or any other sims). What's worse, my internet link is steam-powered and won't take more than 1 meg.

However, I can make a few general comments about the accuracy of shooting in WW2.

First, most pilots never hit anything, and about 90% of kills were made by 10% of pilots. Pilot skill was paramount.

Second, before the introduction of the gyro gunsight, deflection shooting was mainly a waste of ammo except by aces of exceptional ability. I have read a contemporary RAF document dated 1942 which stated that most fighter pilots didn't even bother trying a deflection shot against a Bf 109, the chance of a hit was so low.

Third, even if you believe the shoot-down figures claimed by B-17 and B-24 gunners (which are known to be wildly overstated) they still took ten times as much ammo to shoot down each claim than the fighter boys did.

That said, it's fair to say that the constant practice which modern sim-players get probably makes their skills much better than most WW2 pilots. OTOH, no sim can replicate the pure terror of real combat, which was bound to have an effect on shooting accuracy.

Tony Williams
Military gun and ammunition website: http://www.quarry.nildram.co.uk
Discussion forum at: http://forums.delphiforums.com/autogun/messages/

[whgates3]

Just finished George Beurling's autobiography _Malta Spitfire_.  'Screwball' (a word, BTW, that does not appear in the book).  He was very proud of his deflection shooting ability and made a special comment on every kill that made w/ a deflection shot.  I doubt he would have done that if it was commonplace.  He also suggested that while other were out carousing he was doing bookwork figuring out the principles of deflection shooting.  To me this implies that, at least in the RAF (which always seemed to be a bit behind in adaping to new situations),  deflection shooting was not taught, or was not emphasized and anyone who could do it well was considered [insert superlative of choice]

[MANDOBLE]

vatiAH, you may look to the stats, it is not a matter of kills or deaths, its a matter of performance. I find our Typh far better fighter than our P51D or any P47.

[Tony Williams]

Deflection shooting certainly was taught in the RAF; I have lots of notes of guidance for pilots on exactly that. The problem was that most people's judgment tended to be poor, especially under the stress of combat. The bit of advice that sticks in my mind had a somewhat despairing tone: "the enemy aircraft is always twice as far away as you think it is, and in deflection shooting you need to aim twice as far ahead as you believe is necessary"!

Tony Williams
Military gun and ammunition website: http://www.quarry.nildram.co.uk
Discussion forum at: http://forums.delphiforums.com/autogun/messages/

[LLv34_Camouflage]

I'm not Mr. Williams, but I'll answer the first question anyway.

Originally posted by RRAM

1- do you think that AH has -in your opinion- an accurate simulation of air-to-air gunnery in World War two?.
 

In a word: no.

Imho, so far the best simulation of WW2 A2A gunnery is in IL-2. SDOE is pretty good too.  In those games you have to hit the actual polygons of the plane to score a hit. Shooting at ranges above a couple of hundred yards is pretty much a waste of ammo. To me it seems clear that AH has hit bubbles.

That said, I do believe that hit bubbles in AH are ok. They provide better gameplay, here you can actually hit something.  Anyone who has tried IL2 knows how frustrating it can be when you just waste your ammo, shooting at point blank range without hitting...

Camo

[MANDOBLE]

Originally posted by LLv34_Camouflage
Anyone who has tried IL2 knows how frustrating it can be when you just waste your ammo

And how rewarding is to shoot with IL2 and hit and destroy something. Me, personally, enjoyed X vs Tie Fighter a lot, but this is something I dont expect from any flight simulator.

[Kweassa]

Aout the hit bubbles.. I recall hearing from this baord that AH does not have a hit bubble, and in effect principle it would be the same as the way modelled in IL-2.

 I've tried some simple tests on how accurate this could be.. and there are some things I've tried that I was never ever able to do in AH:

1) Getting tracer rounds fly between the elevator and the wings from direct 6oc angle
2) Getting the tracer rounds fly by each side of the vertical stabilizer
3) Getting the tracer rounds fly by each side of the wings
4) Getting the tracer rounds fly through the space between the fuselage and the booms on the P-38L

 ....

 In the case of IL-2, I've seen and done all of the above (except number 4). Tracers flying past very narrow spaces.... the unlucky 'near miss'es passing by the plane almost as if grazing the surface... wing armed planes shooting at inadequate  convergence ranges and seeing the tracer rounds pass by each side of the vertical stabs..

 I don't ever recall seeing those sorts of things in AH. I've never had wing-armed planes having problems in hitting the target out of convergence range.. and can't really notice the advantage of center-line armed weapons too.

 Of course, those 4 tests I've tried are things that need skill to do, and I'm afraid the reason I couldn't do it might be because I lack those skills. I'd be interested what the results are if some of the better pilots try it.

[Pongo]

Originally posted by whgates3
Just finished George Beurling's autobiography _Malta Spitfire_.  'Screwball' (a word, BTW, that does not appear in the book).  He was very proud of his deflection shooting ability and made a special comment on every kill that made w/ a deflection shot.  I doubt he would have done that if it was commonplace.  He also suggested that while other were out carousing he was doing bookwork figuring out the principles of deflection shooting.  To me this implies that, at least in the RAF (which always seemed to be a bit behind in adaping to new situations),  deflection shooting was not taught, or was not emphasized and anyone who could do it well was considered [insert superlative of choice]

It was not common place. Most aces accounts you read have in them the revelation when the pilot learned to deflection shoot.
But those films have no mention of who the pilot was. The top german aces could shoot alot better then that.