Author Topic: Test Questions on visual "Realism"  (Read 1506 times)

Offline Fatty

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Test Questions on visual "Realism"
« Reply #30 on: June 28, 2001, 10:58:00 PM »
Cool, I got em both right!

Offline Naudet

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« Reply #31 on: June 29, 2001, 11:31:00 AM »
Well done Toad.

And this problem will only be solved if we get much greater screens (imo 24" or more)
and much higher resolutions (imo around 3000x2000).

So this is no task for HTC but for Intel/AMD and all graph chip producers, to bring us huge graph performance to an acceptable price.

Offline Daff

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« Reply #32 on: July 01, 2001, 04:38:00 PM »
The problem is not only screen resolution, but the field of view. I'd like Toad to repeat his reallife test, looking through an wide-angle lens and see how close he needed to be to read both tailshape and numbers  :D
The human eye got (roughly) a field of view, similar to a 35mm lens (roughly 55 degrees, I believe), where as AH uses 90 degree FOV...but we also got a periphial view of about 160 degrees.
 In WB3, you can change the FOV, between 90, 75 & 60 degrees...60 degrees gives a lot more realistic size of planes,(At 300 yards they look big!) but it narrows your view too much to really be used for all but gunnery on stable targets and all stick movements appears enhanced. (This is a perception as we're too used to move the stick X-amount to move the crosshair X-amount and that all goes out of the window when you have a 60 degree FoV).
The solution?..180 degree screens  :).

Daff

Offline Toad

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« Reply #33 on: July 01, 2001, 05:19:00 PM »
Daff, there's no doubt FOV is important.

In fact, isn't the "zoom" in AH a variable FOV? At least that's what I thought we were doing. When we zoom in, we are narrowing the FOV, gaining detail and sizing more accurately.

I'm quite sure you could go to 1000' in AH and zoom in enough to distinguish numbers as numbers (corresponing to the T-38 example). But you'd give up almost all of a human's normal peripheral vision in doing that.

It would be quite interesting to see at what FOV that occurs. There's some good data on the web about human FOV and Peripheral vision.

Peripheral is REAL important in a game like this. Here's a clip of why I think so:

"The peripheral retinal system is sometimes called the "where" retina. It is involved with the subconscious control of human navigation. It is an old visual system, having evolved long before central visual processing. The evolution of the retina is played out as you go from the extreme edge of the retina (the oldest system in evolution) to the retinal "center", the fovea, where central processing occurs.

The extreme far edges of the retina are purely reflexive. When an object moves on the far retinal edge an immediate reflex swings the eyes in a direction which aligns the moving object with the fovea. Closer in, the peripheral retinal tissue can "see" movement, but there is no object recognition. When movement stops, the object becomes invisible. Closer in still, the medial peripheral retina monitors optical flow, the velocity of objects moving across the retinal surface. It is this optical flow that is the basis for the subconscious human navigation system, the "where is it" system."

Our problem is when we alter the FOV in the various games, we lose most of the peripheral vision.

I really don't think there's going to be a good solution until we either get half dome projection monitors or really, REALLY good VR goggles.  :)
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Offline Robert

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« Reply #34 on: July 01, 2001, 08:49:00 PM »
ummm 300d in the game = 1000ft right?
1d = 3 FT in the game?

RWY

Offline Starbird

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« Reply #35 on: July 01, 2001, 10:21:00 PM »
Robert, yes as far as I've read, 1d = 1 yard (or meter, depending on what your used to) = 3ft.

On another note, IBM has developed a 22inch 200dpi monitor.

 
Quote

With 200 pixels per inch and more than 9 million pixels in total on its
22-inch screen, the new display is as clear as an original photograph and
4.5 times sharper than top-of-the-line high-definition television screens.

I'd like to see one of these in action.

ibm news article here

Offline Tilt

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« Reply #36 on: July 02, 2001, 02:51:00 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Toad:
I'm quite sure you could go to 1000' in AH and zoom in enough to distinguish numbers as numbers (corresponing to the T-38 example). But you'd give up almost all of a human's normal peripheral vision in doing that.


So are you suggesting that icons are only available in the central screen zone that would be seen in zoom mode? and never available at more than 1000 ft unless in zoom mode? (ie carfully scrutinizing the object)

Tilt
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Offline Toad

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« Reply #37 on: July 02, 2001, 03:04:00 AM »
No, I'm only saying that it is possible to zoom the AH FOV to where you can distinguish numbers as numbers at 1000'. As in the RL T-38 example.

This narrows the FOV, of course, but at least it does give you RL type detail at 1000'.

You give up a lot of peripheral vision doing that however.

I'm not actually suggesting anything.
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Offline LLv34_Camouflage

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« Reply #38 on: July 02, 2001, 06:00:00 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Toad:

Around 240 feet I could see the serial numbers well enough to tell they were numbers. (Default view, no zoom)

240ft or 240 on the AH icon, which shows yards?

When you're at 240ft, the AH icon reads something like 80 yards, right?

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Offline Toad

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« Reply #39 on: July 02, 2001, 11:12:00 AM »
Correct, Camo.

240 Feet, right around 80 yards on the AH range; I was using the numbers under the "P" on the P-51 tail.

It's not an exact science. Your range may vary due to your eyesight, monitor, resolution settings and how well you can stay in formation.   ;)

Suffice it to say you have to be MUCH closer than RL when using the default view.

[ 07-02-2001: Message edited by: Toad ]
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Offline brendo

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« Reply #40 on: July 14, 2002, 08:44:26 PM »
Interesting thread !

This is a very difficult subject to discuss, due to the many variables !

I just had a look out my window towards the airport and measured the distance on a map: over 8000 yards. I can identify all the jumbo's easily... no lighties there.... but 2000 yards further I can see cars on an overpass and easily identify Mac trucks. I remember seeing trucks driving on roads below as a passenger in a jumbo from 30000 + feet, but Im not sure if I was just imagining them..... however I can see buildings from that hight though.

Buzzing around on weekends Im always lower than 4000 feet... I regulary spot and lose sight of aircraft in haze.... You have to keep your eyes peeled! Aircraft sometimes come out of nowhere.

Most of the time you can spot and ID other aircraft many, many, many miles away...  but not always.

Things which interfere include:
* haze
* clouds
* ground clutter

Personally, Id love to have only friendly icons as a MA online setting..... I'd like to be able to sneak up on a bad guy without a neon light giving away my position.

I dont agree with TOADs assessment of the use of icons.... they do not add to realism in my opinon. I'd love bloody great Icons IRL then I could just quickly scan the sky and never miss anything.

'Beware of the hun in the sun'
'Call out those bandits'
'All of a sudden the sky was empty and I was alone'
'He came out of nowhere'
'The first thing I knew was cannon shells exploding on my fuselage'

Just because I can READ the details of another aircraft at 1000 feet doesnt mean that I will aways SEE that aircraft.

Hence my statement that this is a difficult topic! I doubt that it will ever be resolved to my satisfaction!

Offline CavemanJ

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« Reply #41 on: July 15, 2002, 10:57:04 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Starbird
Robert, yes as far as I've read, 1d = 1 yard (or meter, depending on what your used to) = 3ft.

 


Doesn't matter what you are used to, you can't switch between meters and yards at will.

Icons in AH show distance in yards.  d300 = 300yds = 900ft.

Toad, was that 240 you  mentioned what the icon was reading?  That would be 240yds (720ft.)

Offline Karnak

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« Reply #42 on: July 15, 2002, 05:43:02 PM »
Toad already stated that the icon read "80", which he then translated into ft.
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