Another point for the no "God" crowd

[popeye]

I understand that the final words heard most often on cockpit voice recorders are, "oh toejam".

[midnight Target]

When are people going to realize it is not anti-God to want a separation of church and State.

[Shiva]

This stuff about the Pledge of Alligence is pure crap. Wasn't it originally written with out reference to God, untill someone decided it needed to be re-written?

It was added in the mid-50s, along with adding 'In God We Trust' to our money, at the instigation of Senator Joseph McCarthy (of HUAC fame), to distinguish America from the 'godless communists'.

Frankly, though, I don't think we went far enough with the money. After 'In God We Trust', we should have added 'All Others Pay Cash'....  

[Arfann]

"You can't run a country by a book of religion
Not by a heap or a lump or a smidgen
Foolish rules of ancient date
Designed to make us all feel great
It's just dumb all over..

It says in the book that God made us to be just like him
So if we're dumb,then God is dumb
And maybe even a little ugly on the side..."

(Chorus)

"Dumb all over
A little ugly on the side(repeats)"


Frank Zappa;"Dumb All Over" from "You Are What You Is"

"He's got twenty million dollars in
His heavenly bank account.
And you suckers ain't gettin' nothin'!

TAX THE CHURCHES

[eskimo2]

I used to be a public school teacher.  Part of my job was to teach societal values and the difference between right and wrong.  In spite of being raised as the son of a preacher-man, however, I never hinted at my religious beliefs.  I firmly believe in separation of church and state.  My students looked up to me and learned values from me.  It was my duty to teach a student that stealing is wrong, even if their parents told them that it's OK "as long as you don't get caught".  But, I would never counter a parent's religious beliefs (or their absence of beliefs).  As a public school teacher (and government representative), I had no business undermining parent's rights to teach and raise their children according to their own religious beliefs (or absence of beliefs).

I think the kid was right to challenge the school.

One thing that I often asked myself was,
"If I lived in a predominately Muslim community, what would I want my daughter's teacher and school system to teach my daughter about Islam?"  "How would she feel if Islam was pushed on her?"

It makes you think...

eskimo

[Arfann]

Originally posted by Yeager
People like to dismiss God.  Its very easy to do in our highly advanced (sic) culture.

Funny thing is though, when people see that telephone pole racing towards us at 60 miles per hour we all say the same thing, religious zealots and athiests alike: OH GOD!!!!!!!IM TOO YOUNG TO DIEEEEEEEEE!!!!!!

Its funny really.

Hmmm. It was at the moment I really expected to die that I stopped believing. My emotion at the time swung away from "Why me, Lord?" to "Wait a minute!  If there were  an all powerful loving entity this wouldn't be happening!" Now for the " Don't try to comprehend God's will" replies.

[SirLoin]

Religion is the biggest joke in modern society.

[mauser]

fdski:  Yep, it's a public school - so there's nothing stopping him from challenging it.

I don't go to church either, and am not baptised - my parents left it up to me to decide.  I never felt the Pledge of Allegiance nor our high school code were pushing religion on me - the kids in bible study groups (not school-sponsored) were far more pushy.  There have probably been a lot of kids who've gone through our school who were not Christian/Catholic/etc. but were Buddhist, Taoist, etc... most ppl here are asian and quite a few are immigrants.  My friends and I weren't religious and never gave the code or the pledge a second thought.  There were other things to worry about.  This kid should have other things to worry about... why waste his time/other ppl's money on a lawsuit when he's still in high school and has a lot of growing up to do still?  Sure it's good for kids to have more mature concerns like attempting to take college level courses, vote, take part in the community.  Those activities can further richen one's social and academic skills and increase one's future value in society.  However, this to me sounds more like increasing litigation in society...

mauser

[Shuckins]

Let me see if I understand.  If there is a compassionate and loving God, he would not allow our valuable selves to be killed by a telephone pole in an automobile crash.  He would punish all child molesters, prevent all life-threatening house fires, hunt down all terrorists, prevent famine and starvation, end pollution and close the hole in the ozone layer, and in general clean up all of our mistakes and punish those guilty of crimes against humanity.

That about it?

He gave us a world to live in and a code of conduct to live by which would prevent many of these problems.  Why should he clean up our messes and wipe our snotty noses?  We have freedom of choice in whether or not to follow His code of conduct.  If we choose not to we are left to stew in our own juices.  

From what I have read in the above posts, many of you wouldn't have it any other way.  Death is the closing act of life in a natural world that God has largely left to run itself.  Most major monotheistic religions see Him as being concerned mainly with the development of mankind's spirit.  Unfortunately, that view has been overshadowed by the use of religion to hide the deeds of the corrupt and the savage.  

"Religion is the opiate of the masses!"  (Lenin)

For those of you who do not wish to believe, no amount of debate or evidence will be sufficient to sway you.  The same can be said for those of us who do believe.  I choose to believe in a higher moral authority who will hold me accountable for how I treat my fellow man.  Personally, the belief that someone is "looking over my shoulder" at times has caused me to pause before taking certain actions.


Regards, Shuckins

[AKSWulfe]

Originally posted by Shuckins
Personally, the belief that someone is "looking over my shoulder" at times has caused me to pause before taking certain actions.

That's called a conscience. You have it regardless of whether you're religious or not.
-SW

[Shuckins]

AKSWulfe,

A conscience and the "fear of divine retribution" are not the same.  I sometimes ignore my conscience, because it is a flawed thing.  If I am tempted to do something that I believe is against God's will I have divine retribution to consider.

Many of our criminals have no conscience.  Therefore, outside of the legal system, there are no restraints on their behavior.  Yet there are many examples of criminals who have been rehabilitated by religion alone.  

Whether you believe personally or not, God has played a valuable part in the lives of untold millions of people, providing strength and comfort to help them in their daily lives.  

If you can make it without it, more power to you.  I prefer to think that I have a guide in life and a should to lean on when I need it.


Regards, Shuckins

[AKSWulfe]

I guess, whatever floats your boat.

I can't see myself worshipping a mythical figure head invented by much simpler people in much simpler times as a means to explain life.

Hell, for thousands of years man kind believed the firmament was the atmosphere.. and, well, I forget the exact diagram but it was basically taking earth and breaking it up into various things for religious persons to explain the world.

For all you know, you're getting duped by some couple hundred thousand year old simpletons...
-SW

[eskimo2]

Originally posted by mauser
fdski:  My friends and I weren't religious and never gave the code or the pledge a second thought.  

Obviously, most folks are not offended by the code.  That's not the point.  Some are offended, and should not have religion forced upon them by the state, even to the slightest degree.

Originally posted by mauser
There were other things to worry about.  This kid should have other things to worry about... why waste his time/other ppl's money on a lawsuit when he's still in high school and has a lot of growing up to do still?  

Because it's wrong in his eyes.  How can you blame someone for wanting to fix something that is wrong?  The vast majority of people are willing to simply put up with things that they see as being wrong.  People like this kid are the only chance that we have to correct ingrained flaws in our government.  This is a brave kid.  He's standing up to his principal, his school, his school system, many of his peers and possibly his government.  In doing so, many people will end up despising him.  Many religious people who claim to be tolerant of other religions, are.... but they openly hate anyone who is not religious!  

Most kids want to change the world.  They want to right wrongs, both big and small.  Perhaps he could have chosen something more important to fight, so?  There are thousands of service groups in the U.S. that are not addressing the most important issues in America... so?  People take on whatever gets to them for a variety of reasons.  Why does it matter?

If any money is wasted in a lawsuit, it will be wasted only by the school.  They are both morally and legally in the wrong.  They should recognize this and change the code before this goes any further.

For Hawaii to get caught up to the mainland, it needs more people who are willing to take a stand and demand change.

eskimo

[Arfann]

Shuckins:

"For those of you who do not wish to believe, "

If it were as easy as "wishing to believe" it would be silly not to.  You look at the information, process it, and (at least somewhat dependent on your level of indoctrination at a young age) either believe or not. Ain't no "wishing" to it. (The door's now open to "open your heart" rhetoric).

[Kieran]

Nifty-

Never said anything of the kind. I said religion is being pushed out of our society- did you read the responses to this thread? I said morals are being replaced in our schools- with what?

Separation of church and state is a must, no question. However, it is foolish to think that part of the moral fiber of this country is not based on a religious foundation. Now this is considered passe', and more and more often the effort is made to remove it from public consiousness. Now here's the ironic part- the same people that strive to remove any vestiges of religion from society are also in many cases the same people that cry "tolerance" for pet issues.

Did the pledge of allegience actually corrupt anyone? Is it a threat to society? Are you kidding me?

Yes, I am a nut. I do believe the morals of this country are in decline. I do see things as much worse than even 10 years ago. I am afraid of where we are going- and it isn't the religious zealots that are taking us there.