Author Topic: Another point for the no "God" crowd  (Read 2374 times)

Offline eskimo2

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Another point for the no "God" crowd
« Reply #60 on: July 18, 2002, 01:09:52 PM »
Kieran,

There is a huge difference between the two cases (Hawaii & the sailor suit).  The kid in Hawaii went through the proper channels to make a change.  The kid with the sailor suit used force and disobeyed.  As far as how the kids went about seeking change, the two situations couldn't be much different.

eskimo

Offline LAGUERRE

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Another point for the no "God" crowd
« Reply #61 on: July 18, 2002, 01:11:50 PM »
Not trying to prove anything AKS.....are you???????

Just trying to state that people who shed blood for freedom shouldnt have been made to sacrafice in vein....



LAGUERRE

Offline AKSWulfe

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Another point for the no "God" crowd
« Reply #62 on: July 18, 2002, 01:16:33 PM »
And that's my point LaGuerre... veterans (my dad is one too) fought for our freedoms, our constitution.. the country... but they didn't fight for the word "God".. they fought for the freedom to say it and express it.

Exactly what are you, or anyone else who believes in God, losing when it's taken out of the Pledge (something added recently) or if it is no longer in the education system?

You aren't losing the freedom to say it, you aren't losing anything really... other than free publicity for your religious beliefs.

Is that it? Or is it that you think the education system NEEDS God in it to educate your children? Please excuse me, but shouldn't the PARENTS being the one to instill these values in their children? AFAIK, school doesn't take you to mass on sunday..

And that's my point, there is no outlawing of the word God.. but there's a desire to remove it from certain things that it shouldn't be in, in the first place. It wasn't in the Pledge originally, it wasn't on the money originally...

Does it somehow make this country a bunch of heathens by removing that word from the Pledge? From the money? Yes? Then we are already heathens, removal of that word has no after effect.

But like I said, when you lose free publicity for your faith.. I guess there's a reason to get upset.... this country wasn't founded on Catholicism/Christianity.. it was founded by Catholics/Christians.

BIG difference.
-SW

Offline eskimo2

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Another point for the no "God" crowd
« Reply #63 on: July 18, 2002, 01:22:04 PM »
I just re-read the article.  I think others should do so as well:

Wednesday, December 26, 2001
McKinley High School student code
preaches "Love for God."
Teacher's complaint triggers HCSSC demand for immediate removal.

Hawaii Citizens for the Separation of State and Church (HCSSC) has filed a formal complaint with the Department of Education after receiving a complaint from a teacher employed at McKinley High School. The teacher's complaint alleges that the school's Code of Honor promotes "Love for God" and is posted in classrooms and published in the student handbook.

McKinley High School student Code of Honor

As a student of McKinley, I stand
For Honesty
In all I do and say;
For Industry
In study, work, and play;
For Purity
In spirit, thought and deed;
For Courage
To meet life's every need;
For Brotherhood
Of races all combined;
And Love
For God and all Mankind.

By including the phrase "Love for God" in its Code of Honor for students, McKinley High School has violated the constitutions of the United States and the State of Hawaii, as well as HAR §8-41-1 which reads in part: "It is the policy of the board of education that there shall be no discrimination in any program, activity, or service of the public school system on the basis of race, color, religion, sex, age, national origin…."

McKinley High School is a public school and thus it may neither promote nor endorse any form of religious ideology by any means. The Code of Honor amounts to religious coercion and discriminates against students who are atheist, agnostic, secular humanist, or those who follow non-monotheistic religions such as Buddhism, Hinduism, and Shintoism.

In cases such as Abington v. Schempp, 374 U.S. 203 (1963), Lemon v. Kurtzman, 403 U.S. 602 (1971), Stone v. Graham, 449 U.S. 39 (1980), and Santa Fe v. Doe, 168 F.3d 806 (2000), the Supreme Court of the United States has repeatedly affirmed that students in public schools must remain free from any school-sanctioned religious activity, coercion, or discrimination.

The three-pronged "Lemon Test," established in Lemon v. Kurtzman, 403 U.S. 602 (1971), requires that all government activity must: 1) serve a principally secular purpose; 2) not in effect advance religion over non-religion; or 3) not involve excessive entanglement with religion.

By including "Love for God," the Code of Honor fails all three prongs of the Lemon Test. There is not a secular purpose for including the religious edict; the effect is coercive and discriminatory and clearly involves excessive entanglement.

Setting aside the legal argument, there are serious ethical implications of allowing state-sanctioned religious edicts in Hawaii public schools.

According to figures published in the 2000 State of Hawaii Data Book, only 29% of Hawaii residents belong to any of the Christian sects, while the combined Jewish and Muslim population is less than 1%. Thus only 30% of Hawaii residents hold any form of belief in "God" (i.e., monotheism).

Minority non-monotheist faiths in Hawaii account for approximately 10% of the population; these include followers of Buddhism, Hinduism, Sikhism, Jainism, Shintoism, Hawaiian, Polynesian, Native American, Wiccan, Zoroastrian, and others.

However the vast majority of Hawaii residents -- approximately 60% -- can be described as atheist, agnostic, secular humanist, and/or indifferent.

The McKinley High School Code of Honor is similar to the Ten Commandants. It could in fact be argued that the phrase "Love for God" is a paraphrase of the First Commandment: "I am the LORD your God.... You shall have no other gods before me."

The fact that this purely monotheistic religious edict is ascribed to all students ("As a student of McKinley, I stand...for Love for God") makes this civil rights violation particularly egregious and serious.

By publishing the Code of Honor in the student handbook (i.e., official rules for students) and posting it in classrooms or hallways, the school officially sanctions and endorses this particular religious ideology at the expense of all others.

According to one teacher, "...the [Code of Honor] is now sung by the school choir and recited at different ceremonies." No student should ever be compelled to sing, recite, read or listen to any religious edict in a public school.


The Code of Honor sends a clear message that "honorable" students "believe in" and "Love God," while students who do NOT believe in "God" are somehow dishonorable.

Religious belief is never a requirement for honor, ethics or morality. Public school administrators and teachers should never impose their religious ideologies on students for any reason and by any means.

Supreme Court Justice Robert Jackson wrote: "If there is any fixed star in our constitutional constellation, it is that no official, high or petty, can prescribe what shall be orthodox in politics, nationalism, religion, or other matters of opinion, or force citizens to confess by word or act their faith therein."

The legal arguments and precedence in this matter support the absolute separation of state and church in public schools. Title 8, Chapter 41 prohibits discrimination on the basis of religion.

In letters to Principal Milton Shishido and Superintendent Pat Hamamoto, HCSSC has demanded the immediate removal of the Code of Honor from all public property and materials at McKinley High School.

For more information, please write to HCSSC President Mitchell Kahle at hcssc@lava.net.

Hawaii Citizens for the Separation of State and Church
Email: hcssc@lava.net
Website: http://www.lava.net/~hcssc
_____________________________ ___________________________

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason
is like administering medicine to the dead."

-- Thomas Paine, in "The Age of Reason"
_____________________________ ___________________________

Offline Sandman

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Another point for the no "God" crowd
« Reply #64 on: July 18, 2002, 01:23:56 PM »
Thanx Eskimo. Excellent article.
sand

Offline LAGUERRE

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Another point for the no "God" crowd
« Reply #65 on: July 18, 2002, 01:43:42 PM »
AKS: AHHHHH their it is........Catholics and christians............You see AKS I have only said GOD..........Buddah, allah,mohhamad,native american and druid nature Gods, Jesus,lucifer....Is your problem with or perception of GOD limited to catholics and christians?????????  GOD comes in a multitude of flavors and this "Freedom" thing that your father(who I salute)fought for was the ability to worship as you see fit. Nobody is defining the "true" God  in the pledge or the National Anthem, or the Orders of the Day commencing D-Day.........All that is being said is that the FREEDOM of relidgion and worship of ones God(whatever God that may be) was a foundation of our country's purpose and conception.

 So tell me what are YOU losing by leaving the word God in the pledge???????


I think our country was founded by the Puritan sect know as Separatists, which by confession of faith are non-christian but are often called christians following puritan ways. So I dont think the catholics or the christians had anything to do with it's founding. Just people who believed in GOD and thought that having GOD in their own way brought morals to their community and children .


LAGUERRE

Offline Sandman

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Another point for the no "God" crowd
« Reply #66 on: July 18, 2002, 01:47:53 PM »
"God" means the Christian god, Yahweh... Jehhovah... whatever.

It wasn't added to the pledge or Mckinley's school honor code to be inclusive of all religions. The intent is to exclude.

Oh... and this just in... Freedom of religion also includes freedom FROM religion.
sand

Offline AKSWulfe

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Another point for the no "God" crowd
« Reply #67 on: July 18, 2002, 01:51:49 PM »
And there it is... "Buddah, allah,mohhamad,native american and druid nature Gods, Jesus,lucifer"

My problem is not the perception that it is indeed a direct reference to the Catholic/Christian God (if you try to argue that this was not the exact interpretation when it was added to the money, and to our Pledge, then you should find out what "type" of society it was when they added God to those 2 things)... instead my problem is the reference to a God at all.

Atheists are obviously being segregated against. What about Deists? "Druid nature Gods"<- Plural... see, now we step into the whole realm of monotheistic vs polytheistic. You have one God, Native Americans have multiple... quite a few religions have multiple Gods, and obviously the word "God" is a reference to only one God. This effectively rules them out of following under the singular "God" in our Pledge, on our money, and in many of our government/military institutions.

Where's the freedom of religion now?
-SW

Offline Voss

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Another point for the no "God" crowd
« Reply #68 on: July 18, 2002, 01:57:55 PM »
The problem is, the public school system is provided by the people through government. Public schools are not government and I don't see the 'separation' issue as being applicable.

Protecting an individual's rights is not the same thing as prefering ones' rights over anothers. Laws cannot be written to protect everyone, and it is not the job of government to protect us, anyway. Government should protect the Constitution, and the sovereignty of our shores. The liberal slant that each and everybody in the country needs to be considered in each and every law, is crazy.

Laws cannot protect you. Laws can only take away individual rights by restricting recourse.

Removing prayer from schools has already set us upon a backward trend. Let's see how bad it can really get.

Offline Sandman

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Another point for the no "God" crowd
« Reply #69 on: July 18, 2002, 02:04:36 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Voss
Removing prayer from schools has already set us upon a backward trend. Let's see how bad it can really get.


Nostalgia is a terrible thing and should not be trusted.

Turn off the television and the media and maybe you'll notice. Life is good! :)
sand

Offline eskimo2

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Another point for the no "God" crowd
« Reply #70 on: July 18, 2002, 02:15:54 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Voss
The problem is, the public school system is provided by the people through government. Public schools are not government and I don't see the 'separation' issue as being applicable.

Protecting an individual's rights is not the same thing as prefering ones' rights over anothers. Laws cannot be written to protect everyone, and it is not the job of government to protect us, anyway. Government should protect the Constitution, and the sovereignty of our shores. The liberal slant that each and everybody in the country needs to be considered in each and every law, is crazy.

Laws cannot protect you. Laws can only take away individual rights by restricting recourse.

Removing prayer from schools has already set us upon a backward trend. Let's see how bad it can really get.


Imagine that your child's teacher begins to teach your child Islam and they pray to Allah every day.  What do you think about removing THAT kind of prayer from your school?  Do you think that there needs to be laws to prevent something like THIS from happening?

"Public schools are not government "  
Your kidding, right?  Public schools are government.  

eskimo

Offline LAGUERRE

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Another point for the no "God" crowd
« Reply #71 on: July 18, 2002, 02:24:09 PM »
Well if you look into the druid relidgion Arawn was their God of gods so to say and all others were lesser Gods. And the native american relidgions all had their supreme being with other lesser gods to boot, so yes this can be twisted and tweaked to fit your purpose. Catholics all believe in the Father, Son and, Holy Spirit all seperate but equal, one in the same......... So your plural God's argument is  good attempt but lacks substance. As far as the GOD mentioned in the pledge and money we can all debate "who" this GOD really is but dont you think just the word "GOD" was left that way as not to define which, so just because maybe a catholic or a christian wrote or decided to place this referance in the pledge or on money it dosent specificaly mean any one God. We can argue and twist this all day and you wont change my mind and I will never change yours so just as you state what do I lose if removed,,,,what do you lose if retained???


LAGUERRE

Offline Eagler

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you can bet your sweet bippy they do in Islamic countries..

the majority of folk in this country are Christian. I do not see an issue with christian prayer being a standard in this country.


strange how some think this would be a better country if it were a "godless" one ... just like "godless" Europe.

:rolleyes:

Sorry guys, God was here before you showed up & God will be here after you go ... get used to it.
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Offline LAGUERRE

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Another point for the no "God" crowd
« Reply #73 on: July 18, 2002, 02:29:32 PM »
Sandman Life is good?????????For some of the lucky ones it is......Im sure the family of the murdered molested child would differ with you, or maybe the some of the families of fallen servicemen, or families of victims of 911.........Is this the famous ostritch act, bury your head in the sand and it will all go away?????  Yep ignorance is bliss...

LAGUERRE

Offline LAGUERRE

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Another point for the no "God" crowd
« Reply #74 on: July 18, 2002, 02:31:07 PM »
WELL said EAGLER.


LAGUERRE