Tank to Air Victories

[Rojo]

5 a/c kills with my PzIV last night (most of them Hangtime...thx for the target practice  ).  Btw, you can traverse the turret 180 degrees in < 1 second when you've already lost one track but the engine is still ok; just put it into gear and gun it forward for a second...she'll spin like a top.

As for how easy it is to hit a moving a/c with the main gun, well most AH pilots make it easy on the tanker.  A shallow straight in approach is asking to take one up the nose.  Come in high, use a steep dive angle, and approach from off-angle until you're almost in your own weapon's release envelope.  Should it be possible to hit an a/c with the gun at all? Yes, but it should be extremely rare.  However, pilots in AH take risks that a real-life combat pilot wouldn't so the losses are proportionately higher. Just like attacking a buff, if you do an anti-armor attack properly you're unlikely to get your head handed to you.

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Sabre, a.k.a. Rojo
(S-2, The Buccaneers)

[This message has been edited by Rojo (edited 04-24-2000).]

[RangerBob]

DoctorYo I'll tell you a little secret if you promise not to tell anyone else.


There is a machine gun linked to the turret that you can fire. It's the alternate trigger button. I have it set on my stick and use it all the time. You can elevate the main gun at planes and fire at them even in a crossing pattern.

I did shoot down a plane with one of these after he made several passes, but I must have been a bit lucky. He was a lousy shot or he would have killed me before I could manage all those hits during all his passes.

As for the main gun, well I agree that it should be very rare to be able to hit a plane with one of those.

Ranger Bob

[Fatty]

Just figured this out last night myself Bob.  Trick is it's not mapped, you have to go in and set it (under Gunner).  Sure is a lot easier than trying to turn the tank to face oncoming aircraft  

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Fatty
FAT DRUNK BASTARDS

[mx22]

OK for everyone who doesn't belive that it is possible to kill a plane with a tank's main gun, there is a book called "P-47 Pilots : The Fighter-Bomber Boys" by Tom Glenn, a P-47 fighter-bomber himself. It states there that pilots were afraid to do shallow runs on tanks because of danger being hit by their main gun. That and German air defences made them to attack their targets at high angles of attack.
Now, how easy is it to hit a plane in a tank? Well if you can turn your turret fast enough and aim, I don't see anything unreliastic about that. For everyone who does tank busting, I would suggest attacking targets at high angles. You risk hitting the ground, but you minimize your chances being hit by M16s and tank's main gun simply can't elevate that high. You also make it easier for yourself to aim with rockets and bombs.

mx22

[Tern]

Man, that's old news Dago    Used to see it all the time in...

...suspense

is

building...


...Are

you

ready

for

this?...


The Haunted Tank Comic book.  Yup, that good ole "Lee" knocked them Nazis down like flies with its pop gun.  

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Tern
"Live to Fly!  Fly to Fight!  Fight to Live!"
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"There I was, inverted at 50 feet and 120 kts. and the only thing running was the radio."

[This message has been edited by Tern (edited 04-24-2000).]

[Pongo]

 

Originally posted by mx22:
OK for everyone who doesn't belive that it is possible to kill a plane with a tank's main gun, there is a book called "P-47 Pilots : The Fighter-Bomber Boys" by Tom Glenn, a P-47 fighter-bomber himself. It states there that pilots were afraid to do shallow runs on tanks because of danger being hit by their main gun. That and German air defences made them to attack their targets at high angles of attack.
Now, how easy is it to hit a plane in a tank? Well if you can turn your turret fast enough and aim, I don't see anything unreliastic about that. For everyone who does tank busting, I would suggest attacking targets at high angles. You risk hitting the ground, but you minimize your chances being hit by M16s and tank's main gun simply can't elevate that high. You also make it easier for yourself to aim with rockets and bombs.

mx22

Please provide quote from said book of this happening.


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Pongo
The Wrecking Crew

[mx22]

 

Originally posted by Pongo:
Please provide quote from said book of this happening.

Pongo,

You'll have to wait on this one a bit. Would take me time to find the quote.

mx22



[This message has been edited by mx22 (edited 04-29-2000).]

[mx22]

Ok, that was easier then I expected.

Here we go:

Book name: "P-47 Pilots The Fighter Bomber Boys"
Author: Tom Glenn

p.43 paragraph 5

"With nowhere to hide, they had to fight, and fight they did.The Tiger tank with its deadly 88 was one hell of a weapon, but the gunners couldn't seem to handle it too well against us. This is understandable when you consider the tank was moving - taking evasive action - and we were moving - skidding and slipping, twisting and turning, until the very last second before shooting. It was suicide to fly on a straight line attack course into a tank; the tank gunner could get a direct bead on you, and the 88 would blow you out of the sky."

So here we go. In AH tank is most probably standing when it shoots or aims. With people doing shallow runs on armor, I see why we pilots get blown up out of the sky. Panzer is no Tiger of course, but it's main gun is not a bb gun either.

mx22

[Westy]

Bingo. That was the quote I'd been thinking of too. Buit I'd loaned that book out over a year ago and it wasn't around. But I also have it from two P-47 pilots, from the 350th FG that flew FB missions with the P-47, that this was true also.

-Westy

[Pongo]

Your quote doesnt say it happend.
The author is more musing about it...Please find the account of this happening.
The panzer IV would be more likely to be effecitve at this then the tiger. The extra HE power of the 88 L56 is not required to kill the AC. There is no altitude or proximity fuzing in effect. The faster travers of the PzIv would make it a better anti AC tank then the tiger... What is needed in the game is an early panzer III. 37mm gun(might as well be a 200mm if it hits the ac, Tones of ammo, very high rate of fire,2 coax MGs, very fast turrent travers. Imagine all the aircraft they must have shot down whith those babies...

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Pongo
The Wrecking Crew

[mx22]

 

Originally posted by Pongo:
Your quote doesnt say it happend.
The author is more musing about it...Please find the account of this happening.
The panzer IV would be more likely to be effecitve at this then the tiger. The extra HE power of the 88 L56 is not required to kill the AC. There is no altitude or proximity fuzing in effect. The faster travers of the PzIv would make it a better anti AC tank then the tiger... What is needed in the game is an early panzer III. 37mm gun(might as well be a 200mm if it hits the ac, Tones of ammo, very high rate of fire,2 coax MGs, very fast turrent travers. Imagine all the aircraft they must have shot down whith those babies...

Pongo,

Quote that I gave you above is enough to prove that tanks were capable and did brought planes down. If it wasn't the case, I'm pretty sure author would not have mentioned it. If you have a problem with that, I guess it's better for you to contact him and find out about all the details.
On the other hand, I want to see what prove do you have that tanks couldn't shoot at planes. I seen a lot of talk here, but no prove whatsoever at why tank couldn't hit diving plane.
All the gunner had to do is line up gun with a shallow diving plane and shoot. HE or AP, doesn't matter. It won't matter if the round will explode or not either - it's big enough to make fatal damage to plane by simply flying all the way through plane structure.

mx22

[Pongo]

Sorry
Your quote proves no such thing. This author thought about the possability and I belive those jug pilots thought about the possibility too. Probably even the panzer crews thought about the possibility.
But if the only "proof" you have is some one mentioning that it was posssible I dont think that the number of times it happens in Aces High justifies that.  I would say that it happens more times in a night in AH than it happend in the war.(if it ever happend)
The scenario about vulching a field is of course different. Obviosly that is possible and a logical extension of how this game is played.
I dont think that we need discuss it further. You like that it happens in the game and think it is realisic. I dont like it and am waiting for an account to back up the capability.
The only practical experiance I have is shooting a turrented 50cal at a target drone. But that was enough to convice me of the challenges involved. Shooting at a moving vehicle at 600m from a stationary vehicle was beyond the capabilities of most tank gunners. But I guess we are alot more skilled then them.


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Pongo
The Wrecking Crew

[Minotaur]

I have to go with Pongo on this one.  I don't suspect many A/C were shot down by tanks using their main gun during WWII, nor any other war where tanks had a significant role.  IF WWII been fought on the "Moonscape" similiar to the AH terrain there might have been more.

Granted it is fun blowing an attackng A/C out of the sky with a single well placed round.   Look in this thread, the Panzer has a better G2A kill stat than the M16.  Where the M16 is pretty much intended for this sole purpose, at least considering how it is currently used.

The point that is really coming across to me is that who really needs the M16?  

All this can be fixed game wise by the  additionally hardening of the Panzer's armor.  This will restrict the use of gun strafing attacks by their being largely in-effective.  It will also require the use of bombs primarily or rockets, which was probably more historically accurate for the vast majority of the time.

Good Luck on Your Tank Busting Missions!  

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Mino
The Wrecking Crew

[This message has been edited by Minotaur (edited 04-29-2000).]

[mx22]

What can I tell you guys, but to fly smart. Attack at high angles of attack and tanks can't do anything. If you attack at angles where tanks can shoot you down, it's your fault that you die and there is no reason to cry.

mx22

[Westy]

Exactly MX22. I'm not going to bother with this thread anymore. If some folks want to believe the Panzer is some 1990's tracked Phalanx system because of thier poor vehicle attacking methods then so be it. Nothing will convince someone to look for the problem in thier "M.O." when they refuse to believe that is where the problem could be to begin with.

-Westy