Author Topic: Constructive ideas to make level bombers useful  (Read 926 times)

Offline Shiva

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Constructive ideas to make level bombers useful
« Reply #45 on: July 30, 2002, 01:48:54 PM »
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Seems some want bombers to have an "historic role" in the MA, where nothing else is at all "historic".


Well, let's look at the way that AH was built. If HiTech had wanted to produce a sim for the fighter fanatics to furball endlessly, the technology exists to run drone buff groups around the arena; there would have been no reason to include bombers in the flyable planes. Therefore HiTech must have had a reason for wanting player-flown bombers.

The pre-1.10 arena had ground targets unrealistically dispersed so that bombers, with their laser-guided bombs, wouldn't be able to sail over a field or installation and snipe enough targets to cripple the field or installation. If a buffer wanted to get more than two or three targets, they had to choose their approach carefully or make multiple passes.

1.10 changed bombing so that the bombs disperse realistically; it's no longer possible to sail a Lancaster over a field and snipe three hangars, two ammo bunkers, a barracks, and an AA emplacement in one pass -- and setting up a second pass can take long enough that targets struck on the first pass can be up again by the second pass. So there's nothing a bomber can do for tactical support that can't be done as well by jabo missions.

The implementation, in 1.10 as well, of a strategic supply system that appears to be fully nonfunctional, removes the strategic mission for bombers, as well.  What's the point for taking two hours to climb to altitude, run into enemy airspace (when the field ownership isn't so chaotic that you can't just make five-minute jabo runs to the nearby enemy strategic supply base), just to bomb a half-dozen structures at a strategic target when flattening it doesn't affect the country that owns it?

The net effect is to create a powerful disincentive to fly bombers. But, since HiTech must want flyable bombers for some reason, there needs to be some reason for the players to fly bombers. Think about what the MA would be like if all the uberplanes were perk-free.  If you don't give the bomber pilots any incentive to fly bombers, and give them a gruntload of drawbacks, pretty soon you aren't going to see anyone flying bombers. Which defeats the purpose of putting them in the game in the first place.

Maybe the answer is to triple or quadruple the number of AA emplacements at all ground installations, to make it clearing all the AA out enough harder that bringing in bomber strikes to cut swaths of damage across the field is more efficient.  Maybe the answer is making strategic targets more important to field supply. If you change the game so that bombers make a difference to the gameplay, then you're going to have fighters going up to shoot down the incoming bombers before their fields get trashed or get their supply cut off. And because the fighters are coming up after the bombers, if a bomber formation hitting a target is more effective than the same time spend jaboing, then you're going to see fighters coming up with the bombers to defend them -- which brings you right back to the fighter-vs-fighter combat, so you don't lose anything except some of the 'get shot down, take off, fly for three minutes, rejoin the furball' perpetual meat grinder.

Or maybe what it's going to take is enough of the people who did enjoy buffing to group together and make three- or four-group runs on the furball fields and trash the fighter hangars, ammo, and fuel; there have been a pile of suggestions thrown out for discussion about ways to allow bombing to affect gameplay without preventing fighters from taking off to furball, but all I hear from whiners like lasz2 is "No, no, no -- if you let bombers have any effect on my precious furballs, it will destroy the game and all the fun I get from it!" -- nothing constructive, contributing nothing, just whining about how giving bombing any effect on the rest of the game is going to ruin the game completely.

If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the precipitate.

Offline Vermillion

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Constructive ideas to make level bombers useful
« Reply #46 on: July 30, 2002, 02:03:00 PM »
A couple of things to consider.  Now realize that these came from my experience in building one of the earlier terrains, and these are considerations I was told by HTC to always remember.  Some of these may have changed.

1.)  The more buildings/structures present, the more polys it takes.  The more polys you have, in addition to possibly having more fires and smoke plumes in view at any one time, is a degradation of frame rates.  In some cases extreme degradation.

2.) The entire terrain is loaded into memory when you log into an arena.  The more airfields, cities, factories, etc., the more memory it takes, and the slower the load time.  There use to be a hard coded limit in the terrain editor, on the number of objects you were allowed. I'm sure these have been increased, but its still quite finite.  Remember the problems with WWII Online, and its eating up huge memory resources on loadup?

The result is that people with what are already marginal machines will be forced to upgrade, or leave AH.  Realize that personally, I don't mind.  I have a fairly powerful machine, and the ability to upgrade whenever I want (ie no wife yet ;)  )  

But its obvious that HTC has tried to keep minimum machine requirements down to keep its potential player base as large as possible. Personally I like the idea of large Cities and factory complex's, but don't forget the other realities either. :)

Offline Shiva

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« Reply #47 on: July 30, 2002, 03:01:19 PM »
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1.) The more buildings/structures present, the more polys it takes. The more polys you have, in addition to possibly having more fires and smoke plumes in view at any one time, is a degradation of frame rates. In some cases extreme degradation.


I don't think that there needs to be a whole lot of work put into high-poly strat targets, but as a counterexample, look at the troop-training strategic target -- how many of those little barracks buildings are there on each one? If you take that strat target and make all the buildings bigger, then spread them out so that they fill the area more.

For strategic targets, too, the high-altitude bombers are never going to see the flames; I don't see that leaving them out will hurt anything. Similarly, with larger buildings filling more of the space, you can save framerate by taking, say, four adjacent smoke plumes and replacing them with one big smoke plume.  As more of the target gets destroyed, the smoke plumes will merge into fewer larger plumes, obscuring what remains of the target for follow-up bombing runs -- a historical problem, so that comes out as a net benefit.

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2.) The entire terrain is loaded into memory when you log into an arena. The more airfields, cities, factories, etc., the more memory it takes, and the slower the load time. There use to be a hard coded limit in the terrain editor, on the number of objects you were allowed. I'm sure these have been increased, but its still quite finite. Remember the problems with WWII Online, and its eating up huge memory resources on loadup?


Not knowing what the internal data structure of the terrain files are, I can't address this one directly, but it seems to me that this could be addressed by changing the way that terrain loads into memory. If you define a multilevel object structure -- at the terrain level, you have a compound object of type X with orientation Y at position Z, the actual description and status of the object doesn't need to be maintained in memory for every single object on the terrain -- just the ones within visible or soon-to-be-visible range of the player.

The description of a compound object -- where the hangars and things are at a field -- is common to all instantiations of that object, and only needs to exist in one place. The status of that compound object only needs to be a packed array of condition values -- structure 1 is okay, structure 2 is destroyed, structure 3 is flaming, etc.

Of course, making changes to the terrain data structures is going to require a significant rewrite of the terrain creation code, and conversion of the existing terrains; I wouldn't expect to see it as part of a minor upgrade, which means that we're not likely to see more than minor incremental improvements for a while.

Offline Sparks

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Constructive ideas to make level bombers useful
« Reply #48 on: July 30, 2002, 07:29:45 PM »
Wotan - I've copied your last post and will add it to the bottom of the thread I started in General and reply to it there because its a bit more general I think than Karnaks original post here.

Lazs -
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sparks... you appear to realize that you have no purpose without fighters...

You appear not to be able to read...... what I am saying is bombers role in the game has been decreased - it has no link to fighters at all.

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you also appear to want your limited talent ot be given a lot of weight so that you will be noticed.

1. Insulting me adds nothing to your arguement and makes you look a tard
2. I couldn't give a monkeys about being noticed in fact I rather not be.

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You appear to realize that you will be ignored if HTC doesn't make people play with you.

At what point did I ever suggest I was looking for HTC to "make people play with me ???

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I fly fighters and very rarely have an affect on the "war". I am not a threat to the strat. I have no trouble finding people to play with me in the arena.

They shoot you down because you are there - the same as the rest of us - I can assure you most of us do not go looking for you.

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What are you having trouble understanding?

You......

To Everyone else :- Getting back to the original point, while I agree that target spacing and density could be changed, what do you all think about a strat system based on use and supply ??

Offline lazs2

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« Reply #49 on: July 31, 2002, 08:59:14 AM »
hmmm... you guys claim that the fighters have an effect on the fluffs but the fluffs have no effect on the fighters?   Not true.   If a fighter get's bored enough to attack a fluff then the fluff has every chance to shoot him down.

I repeat... You don't want to have anything but a lopsided effect.  I have little effect with fighters other than to remove a few cons from the sky.  And that it by no means a given....  you wish to affect the gameplay of dozens or more players directly without having to have any skill.

large area targets that did not affect fighters but would "win the war" when leveled would allow people who didn't care about the "war" to ignore the fluffs... Those who did care.... would create an "historical" affect.   escort and attack of fluff formations.  
lazs

Offline Shiva

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« Reply #50 on: July 31, 2002, 10:47:38 AM »
I think it's clear from all the posting that there is a fundamental difference between the people who have an interest in 'the war' and the people who just want to furball.

So, as was proposed in one of these threads, we should create an 'Endless Summer' arena. All the terrain has are three large airfields, one for each country, 25 miles apart; only fighters are enabled at each field, there's no ordnance available, and the building durability is cranked high enough that there's no way for any aircraft to be able to take a hangar down with just its guns. Using a large airfield makes it a little more challenging for a country to vulch a field, given six ways for a plane to take off.

Set that up as its own arena and let the people who don't care about 'the war' go off in their own corner and furball to their hearts' content without having to worry about some lowlife bomber pilot flying over their field and porking it unmolested because they ignored him to get to the furball faster. They can play in their own little ghetto and revel in the knowledge that everyone there is interested in exactly the same thing they are -- the kill confirmation in their message window.
« Last Edit: July 31, 2002, 10:55:05 AM by Shiva »

Offline crowbaby

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« Reply #51 on: July 31, 2002, 12:39:24 PM »
As a dedicated fighter pilot, I just wanted to say a few things for the bomber pilots:

When the mission based arena comes up, there will be plenty of fighter pilots who WILL want to fly realistic intercept or escort missions.

There are fighter pilots out there with the patience to climb to 20k and patrol their forward bases and strat targets.

There are fighter pilots out there who feel that bombers should be hard, even very hard, to kill. I 'd love to need go hunting even single bombers with a few wingmates.

There are fighter pilots out there who appreciate that fighters are strategically DEFENSIVE weapons - and if we fail to defend our homeland we do expect to suffer shortages, even lose the war.

But, like yourselves, we will probably have to wait for the mission theatre to have the sort of gameplay we want.

Offline zipity

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« Reply #52 on: August 01, 2002, 12:58:06 AM »
What are you having trouble understanding?

A bunch of things, first and foremost, why I read through this entire thread.  Second, why do folks keep arguing these same issues.  Create a furball arena and see who shows up.  If you take out all the folks that take any shots at ground targets (bomber or jabo) I don't believe you would have a majority of pilots left over.  We keep hearing about the minority of buff pilots who want to change the game from the minority of pure air to air only pilots who can't stand the thought of having to fly more than 2 or 3 minutes to get into a furball.  So the third thing I don't understand is why someone who doesn't want to fly more than 2 or 3 minutes would pay to play a flight sim.  OK..with 1.10 the "air to air" only guys have won.  Buffing is now worthless, show me a buff pilot who claims to hit his target 100% of the time and I'll show you someone who plays at 6am and has only buffed a couple of times.  I like the new bombsight and I've had fairly decent success hitting things from alts of 28-30k but what's the use when it doesn't change the outcome of the battle.  Now its as boring as firing up my auto trim and vulching some newbies in my N1k or La-7.  Does that help game play, AH or HTC?  We'll folks who used to enjoy bombing missions have been dropping from our squad.  You very rarely see over 400 players in the MA anymore.  Congrats, you won, now AH is a lot more like AW and WB and I can't understand why that's a good thing.

Offline tgnr2001

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« Reply #53 on: August 01, 2002, 08:30:56 AM »
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Originally posted by zipity
What are you having trouble understanding?

A bunch of things, first and foremost, why I read through this entire thread.  Second, why do folks keep arguing these same issues.  Create a furball arena and see who shows up.  If you take out all the folks that take any shots at ground targets (bomber or jabo) I don't believe you would have a majority of pilots left over.  We keep hearing about the minority of buff pilots who want to change the game from the minority of pure air to air only pilots who can't stand the thought of having to fly more than 2 or 3 minutes to get into a furball.  So the third thing I don't understand is why someone who doesn't want to fly more than 2 or 3 minutes would pay to play a flight sim.  OK..with 1.10 the "air to air" only guys have won.  Buffing is now worthless, show me a buff pilot who claims to hit his target 100% of the time and I'll show you someone who plays at 6am and has only buffed a couple of times.  I like the new bombsight and I've had fairly decent success hitting things from alts of 28-30k but what's the use when it doesn't change the outcome of the battle.  Now its as boring as firing up my auto trim and vulching some newbies in my N1k or La-7.  Does that help game play, AH or HTC?  We'll folks who used to enjoy bombing missions have been dropping from our squad.  You very rarely see over 400 players in the MA anymore.  Congrats, you won, now AH is a lot more like AW and WB and I can't understand why that's a good thing.


Good post  But tell your squadies to hang in there.  I have faith that these things tend to balance out and that HTC has the business sense and commitment to their product to swing the pendulum back the other way a bit, regardless of what any of us say hear.

tgnr

Offline lazs2

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« Reply #54 on: August 01, 2002, 09:31:11 AM »
zipity... Ok... create two arenas and only two.   Leave em just as they are except make one a fighter plane only arena and the other a fluff only arena.   "see who shows up"   I think that even ther fact that the fluffers won't have to buy expensive joysticks or even upgrade their mouse won't be enough to fill the fluff only arena.

After all... wasn't a good fluff "missun" one where you never seen a fighter that wasn't ur own?
lazs

Offline SKurj

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« Reply #55 on: August 01, 2002, 01:31:06 PM »
oh no lasz what u really want is an arena without bombs and an arena with bombs.


See which one has the numbers then!


SKurj

Offline tgnr2001

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« Reply #56 on: August 01, 2002, 03:31:27 PM »
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Originally posted by lazs2
zipity... Ok... create two arenas and only two.   Leave em just as they are except make one a fighter plane only arena and the other a fluff only arena.   "see who shows up"   I think that even ther fact that the fluffers won't have to buy expensive joysticks or even upgrade their mouse won't be enough to fill the fluff only arena.

After all... wasn't a good fluff "missun" one where you never seen a fighter that wasn't ur own?
lazs


Interesting attempt at framing your argument so as to imply your conclusion is the only valid/logical conclusion.  However, when the factors in an argument are invalid, the conclusion itself is invalid.

A more appropriate test would be a fighter only arena (Fighter Town) and an arena where fighters co-exist with buffs, land grabs are a significant aspect in game play, and bomber missions impact fighter performance.

Since these, in essence, represent the two opposing viewpoints, these would be the more valid scenarios.  In this test, there would likely be a large number of players who would jump between the scenarios depending on their mood and with how dedicated they are to "the war effort" when there side is at a significant disadvantage.  There would be hardcore furballers (I would estimate in the 10% range), probably another 25-50% who would visit both arenas, and at least 40% who would stay in the fighter/buff arena.  This would be somewhat equivalent to experience in Airwarrior arenas, except that the 10% is a very generous number.  Fighter town in Airwarrior was virtually empty while the "main arenas" were often full.

Now.. here's a cookie... run along now  :D

tgnr

Offline eddiek

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« Reply #57 on: August 01, 2002, 03:49:12 PM »
"Now.. here's a cookie... run along now "

You owe me a monitor and a keyboard now.....spewed coffee all over both of them......

:p

Offline tgnr2001

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« Reply #58 on: August 01, 2002, 04:38:24 PM »
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Originally posted by eddiek
"Now.. here's a cookie... run along now "

You owe me a monitor and a keyboard now.....spewed coffee all over both of them......

:p


oops.. sorry  (hope you're kidding about spewing coffee on the keyboard :(  that would suk)

My wife says I have a nasty habit of causing "spit takes".  

tgnr

Offline zipity

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« Reply #59 on: August 02, 2002, 08:36:13 PM »
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Originally posted by lazs2
After all... wasn't a good fluff "missun" one where you never seen a fighter that wasn't ur own?
lazs


Not exactly...a good buff mission was one where I would see you in my bomb sight at 2k of alt just prior to me destroying a couple of your fighter hangers.  Back in pre-v1.10 days I used to really enjoy cons that would actually attempt to cap their fields.  90% of them would die attacking from the bombers 6.  Now unfortunately the buffs are so easy to kill, you might even be able to do it.  Oh that's right you get nose bleeds above 2.5k.  Maybe sometime when you're on, I'll fly a formation at 1k and let you shoot up my drones.  Don't worry, I won't shoot back..I wouldn't want to ruin your game play by making you have to re-plane.  

I really do hope that HTC creates a fighter town for you, give it a week and you'll have the whole place to yourself.