Any chance we will see this in Mission Arena?

[OnePunch]

Personally I feel they should keep it as real as possible.
Allies and Axis.
Know your plane recognition and always check six!!!
It would be a heart pumpin adrenaline rush.

[LLv34_Camouflage]

Originally posted by Nifty
I don't care so much about the chess piece or the plane type.  I need the range info though, because current technology does not come close to giving my eyes the information they'd get if they were in the cockpit in terms of range estimation and rate of closure.

It doesnt come close, but it should be adequate.  With little practise you shouldn't have any problems judging distances and closure.  I believe the planes turn into shapes at around 3K, right?  Using zoom I can easily distinguish a single engine fighter from a multi-engine bomber at that range.  At ranges around 1K I have absolutely no trouble maneuvering with enemies and judging their E-states, attitude, closure and all that.  The information is there. Like I mentioned above, it takes a while to get used to.  The laser range finder is a crutch that should not have a place in the mission arena. If HTC decides that there will be enemy icons, I hope a new icon system will be developed.

I'm sure resolutions and monitor sizes were going to be brought up anyway, so here are some of my observations: I use 17", 1280x1024. Some of my squadmates use 15", 1024x768 and can identify planes better than I.  Some use 800x600 and have no trouble in a "friendly icons only" environment.  In my opinion, hardware is a factor, but not the decisive one.

Camo

[Udie]

Well i hate to bring up another sim here but  I absolutely love the way WW2OL does icons for planes, except I wish they wouldn't have the plane name, just the circle.

 At long range the circle is full and it's small and has no color.  As you get closer to it the circle (icon) gets larger and starts getting color (and the plane name or friendly name).  As you get closer, once the color is on, the circle starts disapearing like a clock kind of.  The gap in the circle starts off small but as you get closer the gap starts to enlarge.  By the time you are about  50 to 100 yds behind the con there is no more icon only the plane name (wich I wish was gone)  

 The best part of this icon system though is that the icons don't apear right away, it takes a couple of seconds.  so if you check 6 you can lose a bandit that was on your 12:00, that is if you're looking for the icon  In ww2ol I'd say that a good 70-75% of my kills never new I was there, and I get bounced alot too!

 I also like the way IL2 does the icons.  You can set it so it only shows the distance.

 This is my biggest complaint about icons.  When you have 30+ planes in front of you all you see are a bunch of neon numbers.  That really takes away from the gameplay to me.  At least in the mission theater I will be able to turn off enemy icons though

[Miska]

Ranges and closure: I  have found that using historical gunsights helps a lot.  Learn the distance at which various planes' wingspan touches the various rings, and you're fine.

[aharder]

Originally posted by Nifty
 I need the range info though, because current technology does not come close to giving my eyes the information they'd get if they were in the cockpit in terms of range estimation and rate of closure.

As soon as a monitor can simulate accurate stereoscopic vision in which to properly judge depth and motion, I'll fly icons off.

   Ever heard of those Edimensional Glasses? I bought 'em 3 days ago and it honestly is the best peripheral I've ever owned.  They alternately shutter-out each eye from seeing a slightly different view-per-frame of the game you're playing and voila! You're scared of flying through hangers because it feels like you're about to hit your head.  You can turn icons completely off because you can SEE how far away a con is. Seriously. They work with ANY GAME THAT USES DIRECTX, and that's almost all of them!  Coolest Damn thing you could buy for your machine.
 And no, I don't have any shares in the company, thank you very much! I'm just saying they were worth my money.

[Nefarious]

Ok...Ok....

If you were to vote on it what would you pick...

1-Full Icons
2-Distance only for Enemy, Full Icons for Friendlies
3-No Icon or distance for enemy, Full Icons for Friendlies

I will admit that i hardly play without enemy icons, but, that is beacause since it is an option, And most other people dont, I would be at the disadvantage.

[Kirin]

Nacho, depth perception has nothing to do with it - stereoscopic vision works up to - lets say - 10m - after that the angle between the 2 pictures is much to small to compute 3D picture (in our brain). Beyond that range we use size references, LOS and other stuff to determine range.

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In RL it might easier to aquire, identify targets but those neon billboard - laser range finder icons are surely too much. Like our beloved warbirds had HUD...

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Shorten icon range, remove range finder and I am happy!

[Zigrat]

quote from camo

Karnak, good point. But is target fixation really an issue with the current icon system? Imho, its too easy to re-acquire a target after checking your six during a fight, therefore you really don't have to fixate on the target in the first place. Checking your six is also too easy, because all you have to do is look for the "red neon".

i think thats 100% right. i dont think a no icon arena is the answer but i definitely believe a "fade in" akin to ww2ol is necessary. acquiring the icon should take at least a couple of seconds . no icons isnt the answer (like everyone says mnonitor isnt good enough) but the ability to instantly "spot the neon" definitely makes check 6ing too easy and disengaging too hard.

[Wotan]

it makes no sense for no icons nme and icons for friendly the should both be the the same.

I vote for grey / faded(pale colors) icons nothing but plane type. if this will be immersive and have axis / allies then all you need is plane type. Keep the ability to hi lite squad /mission folks and wingman.

wwiiol fade in icons would be best.

Killshooter off (provided ht in corporates a way to "kick" those who disrupt a  mission) limited range radar with a 3 min delay for updates. or none at all.

[jaus]

I would count myself in with those who want icons for graphics limitation reasons .....but I remember the historical arena in Warbirds a few years back. It had a historical planeset and no icons at all.

I remember when they first introduced that arena I thought, this is ridiculous .. you can't ID anything.  But as I played it more (I was tired of the meaningless MA then , as now)  I found little signs in the limited pixels that could give a clue as to what the plane was.

  Also in a scenario type environment, where you have some idea of what your threat vectors are, the problem of chasing planes all over the sky is less pervasive as you have a mission to accomplish (which rarely involves chasing lone planes, ala the MA) and you have an idea of where the enemy can and can't be.

I remember that furballs in that arena brought to mind the old stories about pilots being in  a sea of combat one minute , and then all alone in the sky the next.

Anybody else fly that arena ?  (c.a. 1996 or so I think)

[Toad]

Prediction: If HTC screws with the Icons in the Mission Theater, it will have the same resounding sucess that has plagued the Combat Theater. If he's satisfied with only 3-8% of the player base using it on any given night, that would be his business decision.

The Main Arena and the Mission Theater should have the same Icon settings if the Mission Theater is to be a viable entity.

For those that want to alter icons using what options are presently available, there is always Snapshot, TOD and other "scenario" type stuff.

I'm not totally satisfied with the present Icon system. I think it's a bit of "overkill". However, given the presently coded options in Icon choices, I'd choose the present MA setting over the CT setting every time. There's numerous reasons for this and I've stated it in several threads at different times so I won't bore you with repetition.

I also think Icons can be improved and I've posted my thoughts on that in several threads at different times. So, no need to repeat that either.

Bottom line for me:
Using the present Icon choices, No Icons is absolutely the most unrealistic.

Short Icons isn't much better than that.

Friendly Only at normal MA distances would be a better choice than either of those.

Normal MA settings give you info closer to what your Mark I eyeball would give you in RL (Tm) although when you get in close they give you way too much info.

[lazs2]

toad... the "realism" guys are at it again.... they can't ever agree on anything and will use icons as an excuse to stay out of the "missun" arena..   No matter what the icons are.   It will be 3-8% players in the "missun" arena if they get to have their say.
lazs

[straffo]

my answer : NO

I'm not patient as Toad I won't discuss further  

[Wotan]

I agree we need to be able to find a fight but if missions are scripted so that 2 opposing forces meet the icon range / color really wont matter. We need a way to identify nme aircraft at a reasonable range. 6k - 3k is fine anything less is to little.  

A nuetral color icon with just the plane type would be plenty.

I hate no icon squint arenas and I have a 21" monitor.

There will be nothing to do in the mission theater except be in the missions. It this situation any dot that appears thats not accounted for in the mission can be assumed to be nme.

Whatever HT does make it the same for both nme friendly.

[Turbot]

Originally posted by Nefarious
I guess it is something that we will have to wait and see...

I cant understand why no enemy icons would be "unrealistic"...

This was tried in WBIII, which renders models at distance much better than AH, and it failed terribly.  It just doesn't work.