Author Topic: Bombing - impact on the game - WHY NOT ???  (Read 611 times)

Offline Sparks

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Bombing - impact on the game - WHY NOT ???
« on: July 29, 2002, 10:11:15 PM »
There have been many posts recently on the new bombing system - likes, dislikes, how to do it best etc etc - but one thing I've seen in these threads several times is an attitude that those who primarily fly fighters should in no way be affected by anything which bomber pilots do - i.e. go bomb whatever you want as long as it doesn't bother me.  Apparently this is because we are a "minority" .  

This is beginning to P**s me off.

1. This game encompasses far more than just fighters - we even have :eek: ground vehicles :eek: .

2. It has a strategic system involving area capture.

3. The idea of fighters was never to go hunt and shoot down other fighters for the sake of it - it was air superiority - to provide clear skies for the offensive air power to work.

So for those of you who say that me bombing something should not affect your abilty to fly with whatever fuel and ordinance you want from wherever you want when ever you want  - TOUGH - thats EXACTLY why I go bomb stuff [/i]- to only leave you 25% fuel for your YAK wherever I can and to not let you have those 1000lbers for your tiffie.  I want my side to have the advantage - I thought that was the idea.

Maybe I'm missing something ........ :rolleyes:

Bombers have every right to impact the game and how you fly - thats what they were put in for.

Sparks

Offline Wotan

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Bombing - impact on the game - WHY NOT ???
« Reply #1 on: July 29, 2002, 10:20:18 PM »
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Maybe I'm missing something ........


the 40 other threads where each arguement has been fully explored.

That would be my guess.........

Offline Sparks

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Bombing - impact on the game - WHY NOT ???
« Reply #2 on: July 29, 2002, 10:50:51 PM »
Bite - I've got a bite !!!! WOW - must have been top bait.

ROFLMAO - why am I not surprised with your reply Wotan - I'm just glad you waded in so quickly :D

No Wotan I've read them all and see your agenda and I think you're missing the point - AH is not just a fighter free for all like you seem to think it should be.  HTC has adjusted bombing accuracy just right now and brought in formations which although not completely realistic (3 instead of 30) give a better feel to play - what we need is a way back into the game.

Bombers frequently attacked small targets - the Germans nearly won the BoB by bombing UK airfields and factorys,  HTC have just scaled down the formation size to make it playable.  From your thread in GamePlay (where you called the guy a moron btw) - no Tirpitz wasn't sunk by a single Lanc but neither was it by a 1000 plane raid - that raid scaled for the game would be one or two players.

You seem to not understand the prime aim of the bomber - offensive strikes - fighters are there to provide air superiority to accomplish that.

Sparks

Offline Yeager

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Bombing - impact on the game - WHY NOT ???
« Reply #3 on: July 29, 2002, 11:03:57 PM »
If you enjoy flying buffs and shutting down phurballs then more power to you.  AH is not a fighter vrs fighter game, regardless of what the vast majority might care to think.
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Offline easymo

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Bombing - impact on the game - WHY NOT ???
« Reply #4 on: July 29, 2002, 11:19:01 PM »
The MT is going to be super.  You should fit right in.

Offline lazs2

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Bombing - impact on the game - WHY NOT ???
« Reply #5 on: July 30, 2002, 08:15:04 AM »
sparks....So you admit that your life has no meaning unless you can leech onto a fighter guys life?   I think a prissy little guy like yourself will be better off in the new "missun" arena.   Maybe you will make...... general.
lazs

Offline Shiva

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Bombing - impact on the game - WHY NOT ???
« Reply #6 on: July 30, 2002, 09:15:46 AM »
Nice reply, lasz2... now I understand how you justify being called a 'member'...

Offline SKurj

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Bombing - impact on the game - WHY NOT ???
« Reply #7 on: July 30, 2002, 01:18:08 PM »
Sparks.. u missing the point...

The fighters want buffs to not have an impact on their game while at the same time they wish to have an impact on the buffer's game.  

Tho with the new buff model the whines about buff guns has dropped, but then again so has buff survivability +Q

If you don't want buffs to have an impact on the game, then don't shoot at em in your fighters.


SKurj

Offline Sparks

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Bombing - impact on the game - WHY NOT ???
« Reply #8 on: July 30, 2002, 07:59:18 PM »
I've copied this across from a thread in Gameplay as I think it adds something to this discussion

Originally quoted by Wotan
Quote
Sparks I know bombing is boring.......whats your point?

The main isnt a war. Argue for ht to enhance strat, to make larger targets and more dense targets but dont argue the only way a bomber can influence the main is to stop fighters from taking off. Thats not their roll historically and thats not there roll (after 1.10) in AH.

I dont care about 1 bomber pilots fun. He kills the fuel and fhs that stops the fun for far more folks. Jabos and attack planes are designed to do the very thing you want your bomber to do. They do it better (always have) and are a lot more fun to stop. Very rarely does 1 single attack plane impact gameplay the way 1 bomber did prior to 1.1.

Dont gimme crap about killing bombers. They are as easy to kill as killing ants and not much more fun to kill.

I made a detailed suggestion on how the bomber model and an improved strat model could be used to really effect the main with out killing fighter hangers. My suggestion puts bombers in their proper (or as close as can be) roll.

But those who didnt like my suggestion assumed that if bombers were tasked with reducing one countries production to trigger a reset that they would be bored because the rest of the main may ignore them.

You dont want a realistic strat and bomber model. You certainly arent arguing for one. You are the typical Me Me Me Bomber pilot who thinks its his "mission" to stop others from having fun.

There nothing "mysterious" about my motives. I have posted in near 100 of these thread that are started by a bomber pilot who feels his "roll" is unappreciated. My views are clear in everyone. Give bombers the roll they had historically and thats not killing fighter hangers.

If you dont think the majority of folks in the main are in fighters then jump around field to field and see what folks are doing.....the same thing they were doing before 1.1. Upping a fighter and looking for the closest fight.

Instead of taking the time to work through and learn the new model you come here with "now I cant hit the fhs, bombing is ruined". I see others guys bomb and hit what they are aiming for. I've seen fighter hangers destroyed by bombers in 1.10. But wih the formations and new bomb site I would want a little more then just killing a fighter hanger.


Ok first
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The main isnt a war.

I simply don't understand that statement - we have strat targets, territory capture, Gv's, fleets and the message when the last base of a country is captured is "{country} has won the war".  This simulation is based on the whole idea of war.

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Sparks I know bombing is boring.......

I never said it was boring - I don't think it is - time consuming yes but not boring.

Quote
Argue for ht to enhance strat, to make larger targets and more dense targets but dont argue the only way a bomber can influence the main is to stop fighters from taking off. Thats not their roll historically and thats not there roll (after 1.10) in AH.

I'm not arguing the only way a bomber can influence the MA is to stop fighters - there should be more - but it is an important one. And yes it was a historic role - the entire focus of the German bomber force prior to the Blitz was UK airfields and aircraft production factories.

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I dont care about 1 bomber pilots fun.

But I'm supposed to care about 1 fighter pilots fun - a bit one sided don't you think ?

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He kills the fuel and fhs that stops the fun for far more folks. Jabos and attack planes are designed to do the very thing you want your bomber to do. They do it better (always have) and are a lot more fun to stop. Very rarely does 1 single attack plane impact gameplay the way 1 bomber did prior to 1.1.

One bomber killing the fuel at a field is wrong and always has been - thats not what I'm suggesting in my other posts.  However there is nothing wrong either game or historically in a bomber formation flattening a field.

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You dont want a realistic strat and bomber model. You certainly arent arguing for one. You are the typical Me Me Me Bomber pilot who thinks its his "mission" to stop others from having fun.

I most certainly do want a realistic bomber strat model and you most certainly don't know me so don't make sweeping assumptions. My mission is not to stop people having fun - my mission when I log on is to play the game to win - I mke no apologies for that.

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If you dont think the majority of folks in the main are in fighters then jump around field to field and see what folks are doing.....the same thing they were doing before 1.1. Upping a fighter and looking for the closest fight.

Here I think you're just plain wrong but we will just have to differ on that.

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Instead of taking the time to work through and learn the new model you come here with "now I cant hit the fhs, bombing is ruined". I see others guys bomb and hit what they are aiming for. I've seen fighter hangers destroyed by bombers in 1.10. But wih the formations and new bomb site I would want a little more then just killing a fighter hanger.

I have NEVER complained about the new bomber model - it is the best its been - difficult yes but good.  And yes I want a bit more than killing a FH.

I fly fighters AND bombers - I just think that the role of the bomber has slipped too far.

Sparks

Offline gatso

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Bombing - impact on the game - WHY NOT ???
« Reply #9 on: July 30, 2002, 08:04:51 PM »
As I said in another post... Practice is all it take to be able to kill all the strat (fuel) or all the FH at a small base with 1 buff sortie.

If ya can't ya ain't doin it right

Keep pluggin away, it will get easier

Gatso

Offline Karnak

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Bombing - impact on the game - WHY NOT ???
« Reply #10 on: July 30, 2002, 09:49:29 PM »
gatso,

How many runs did it take you to kill all of the strat at the base?

A bomber used realistically should drop all of its bombs in one pass.

How much time did it take?

If you'd been using Bf110G-2s, P-38Ls, Mosquito Mk VIs or P-47D-30s you'd have done far, far more damage in the same amount of time.
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Offline Wotan

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Bombing - impact on the game - WHY NOT ???
« Reply #11 on: July 30, 2002, 09:50:05 PM »
sparks its kind of bad form to cross post quotes to different threads. Luckily I stumbled back into this non-sensical thread to find your reply.

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So for those of you who say that me bombing something should not affect your abilty to fly with whatever fuel and ordinance you want from wherever you want when ever you want - TOUGH - thats EXACTLY why I go bomb stuff -


See told you..........:rolleyes:

Bombers can have an impact on the game. Doing the very thing Bombers did in rl.  That wasnt stopping fighters from upping by killing 2 fhs.

Thats the simple point. No one can ever point to one of my 3000+ posts and find one which was started by me whining either about bombers or any plane. Fly want you want. But dont start a stupid thread about how unappreciated bombers are.

So what so are pt drivers. I only enter the discussion to reply to the rediculous assumption that bombers should be give the gameplay concession to stop fighters and in a sense stifle fighter to fighter combat.

I dont go around destroying all the bomber hangers so you wont be able to fly, or kill all the ord so you cant bomb. But you like every other Flight sim Bomber pilot some how cant understand that the typical roll of a ww2 hvy bomber was not bombing a few structures on an airfield inorder to stop fighters. There were other plane types designed to do that. Thats the same in ah.

The problem isnt that the bomb site calibration is to hard, you just cant snipe of individual fuel tanks from 15k. The problem is there isnt large enough targets and important enough targets and dense enough targets in ah for bombers to even attempt to "simulate" their rl roll.

Stop arguing for the rediculous and argue for bombers to be given the targets they were designed to engage.

Simple as that. I have killed 100s of bombers in ah since I have been here over 2 years. Guys in my squad have gotten over 100 bomber kills a tour in  several tours.

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The fighters want buffs to not have an impact on their game while at the same time they wish to have an impact on the buffer's game.

Tho with the new buff model the whines about buff guns has dropped, but then again so has buff survivability +Q

If you don't want buffs to have an impact on the game, then don't shoot at em in your fighters.


Skurj the reason bombers are so easily destroyed has more to do with the lack of skill of the bomber pilot.  Also the way bombers are deployed in ah guarrantees that they will be killed.

Fighters have no more an impact on bombers then they do other fighters. What impact they do have has a basis in reality. Fighters killed bombers in an attempt to stop them from bombing. Bombers never waged war on fighter hangers in rl. I am not a "realism" freak by any means but I would like to see the fighter gameplay model to reflect what the roll fighters really were. The same with attack aircraft and bombers.

I would agree that bombers are very easy to kill, so are goons, pt boats and gvs. I dont think bombers are any more important to gameplay then any of those.

But on the small maps with small fronts it never fails where at the bases where the most fun fights are a bomber pilot would come in on a suicide run kill the fhs and die. 1.10 addressed that and did a good job of it. So what if a few bomber pilots cant impact the fun of lotsa of other folks. Thats a good thing.

Offline Karnak

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Bombing - impact on the game - WHY NOT ???
« Reply #12 on: July 30, 2002, 09:55:34 PM »
Wotan,

And the point you completely missed in my threads was that I agreed with you that bombers shouldn't be able to stop fighters from upping.  I just suggested that worthwhile targets be added, but that was too much for you to handle.  No, you think bombers should have no effect, and you got what you and Lazs wanted.  Bombers now have no effect on the game.  

And don't talk about strat targets. First, they are laid out in a fashion like the airfields making them practically immune to bombers, but quite nice for Jabos.  Second, the strat targets have practically no effect on tha game and even that can be erased by Goons before the bombers are halfway home.
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Offline Wotan

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Bombing - impact on the game - WHY NOT ???
« Reply #13 on: July 31, 2002, 06:38:38 AM »
what you couldnt understand was I disagreed with your suggestion about if you bomb x then structure hardness at x field would be reduced.

I am not gonna rehash what I wrote but you made a comment in your post (addressing lazs i believe) about bomber pilots not wanting to stop fighters from upping. Well if you read my reply you will see where I conceeded that is maybe not what you want but if read the replies from the guys who fly bombers regularly their whole tone has to do with "bombers need to stop fighters to be useful".

My question  to you was, "what is it you want bombers in ah to do".  Your suggestion was terrible and would be far worse, not just for bomber pilots (structures would become so weak that even the lightest  fighter could kill them) but it made the very thing I argue against in these threads easier to accomplish. The destruction of the fhs. I enjoy defending bases that are under attack by fighter bombers. Part of that fun is stopping them. They come in hvy and slow. I can intercept them cause them to miss of drop their ord. What we would end up with is noe typh and laGG7's coming in at high speed and simply strafing them down.

So you may claim I dont understand your suggestion, but the fact is I think it was you who hadnt thought through what you were suggesting ht do to make bombers "useful". I made a counter suggestion that you dismissed as an attempt to seperate bombers from general gameplay in the main.

I guess we dis-agree but I still dont know what you think a bomber (I mean 4 eng hvy bombers basically) should do in AH. I love the b26, ki-67 and ju88. I dont fly them much but they are wonderful planes.

Offline lazs2

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Bombing - impact on the game - WHY NOT ???
« Reply #14 on: July 31, 2002, 08:14:04 AM »
karnak.. I believe that I had suggested area targets for the fluffs long before you even brought it up.   Big cities that when leveled.... would (lol) "win" the war..

I don't think that is an answer tho, because I believe that the fluffers only wish to spoil gameplay in order to get attention.   They know that they are no fun to play with and that they will be ignored by the vast majority unless HTC figures out ways to make people play with em...  they don't want their own nich... they want to leech off the fighter guys war.  They also know that the fluffs are so boring that they won't get new recruits unless thay can attract the attention starved...  They know that without the attention... potential fluffers will just bite the bullet and learn to fly fighters.   Sure.. fighters take some talent but.. they are so much more rewarding.
lazs