Author Topic: kidnapped CA girls,their dates just let it happen?  (Read 1308 times)

Offline Sandman

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kidnapped CA girls,their dates just let it happen?
« Reply #15 on: August 02, 2002, 12:08:43 PM »
I'm Batdog on this one.

As adults we are far more prepared to make this kind of decision than a couple of teenage boys.

In a situation like that, an adult with a gun holds all the advantage. Those two boys are lucky to be alive.
sand

Offline Creamo

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kidnapped CA girls,their dates just let it happen?
« Reply #16 on: August 02, 2002, 12:30:29 PM »
How the f-ck can you ducktape someone ,at the same time holding a gun, and pay attention to four people at the same time?

Evel Knievel at 12 would have whipped his ass! ( and stole his loot and donated it anonymously to a children’s charity)

You liberal popsicle Sandman. FunkedUp could steal your last peice of pizza and you'd ask if he needed a napkin.

Offline mauser

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kidnapped CA girls,their dates just let it happen?
« Reply #17 on: August 02, 2002, 12:31:24 PM »
So now I find out they were raped.  Fortunately for the guy he's dead.  But I still get to daydream of slowly torturing him to death.  Starts with a USP or something similar so maybe it won't be so slow.  

I really feel sorry for the two girls.  I hope the $h*#head didn't give them an STD.  But either way, they will need a lot of help to cope with it and I hope they will be able to "live" again.  And someday find mates who will understand and not reject them.  

rapist = coward

The coward used a firearm (adding once again to the gun-control fire) on a bunch of teenagers.  Their dates couldn't have done anything about it, but instead did a good job in finding someone who could quick.  Sure in a situation like that you could wish to be as quick as Jet Li and grab the guys gun, disengage the slide, and somehow rip it off without the guys finger pulling the trigger, but that ain't gonna happen.  Hollywood can get you killed.  No CCW in this state either (you're dreaming if you don't think crime occurs - rich japanese tourists tend to not blend in, but alas this state isn't mature enough for CCW), so unless you're lucky enough to have an officer near you, you're on your own.  

mauser
« Last Edit: August 02, 2002, 12:33:30 PM by mauser »

Offline hblair

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kidnapped CA girls,their dates just let it happen?
« Reply #18 on: August 02, 2002, 12:55:08 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Creamo
FunkedUp could steal your last peice of pizza and you'd ask if he needed a napkin.


lol!

Offline capt. apathy

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kidnapped CA girls,their dates just let it happen?
« Reply #19 on: August 02, 2002, 12:59:00 PM »
Those kids where in a very tough spot and nobody should be second-guessing their actions.

I doubt if I'd have behaved the same but I wasn't there.  These kids where with their girlfriends (well it turns out one may have been there with someone else’s girlfriend) not their wives or kids.
Most people don't discuss security or reaction to crime procedures with people they are dating.

But I've never been 'cooperate and see where this goes' kind of guy and the whole 9-11 thing taught us where that can lead.

My kids are taught to fight abduction with every breath. Even after abduction, whether it's screaming, fighting physically or sabotaging cars to buy time or draw attention.  And my wife and kids know that in a similar situation, I will fight and they will run.  They are not to stand around and try to help, or see how it plays out.  If he has a gun odds are I'm just buying time for them with my life and they better not waste what I bought.  If I happen to win I damn sure don't want my wife or kids to see the side of me that would do what had to be done.

But I've had 18+ years to talk to my wife and discuss reactions to this sort of situation.  But these kids where just doing what they could in a situation they where completely unprepared for, they did the best they could and it worked out fairly well, unfortunately the girls where abused but things where not near as bad as they could have been.

Offline udet

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kidnapped CA girls,their dates just let it happen?
« Reply #20 on: August 02, 2002, 01:07:55 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by midnight Target


Eagler is correct......



Eagler and Midnight Target, my opinion is that both of you are idiots. But heck,it's just an opinion...

Offline udet

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kidnapped CA girls,their dates just let it happen?
« Reply #21 on: August 02, 2002, 01:08:49 PM »
also, when I posted this, i didn't know the exact circumstances of the kidnapping-hence the question mark in the title of the post :P

Offline midnight Target

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kidnapped CA girls,their dates just let it happen?
« Reply #22 on: August 02, 2002, 01:15:17 PM »
This is the part I disagree with:
Quote
The only explanation I can come up with is that the girls' dates were two weenies, and they didn't try to do anything.
If I ever end up in a situation like this, I sure as hell hope I won't be acting as cowardly,even if I will pay for it with my life...


I apologize for calling you a moron. But the above quote sure sounds moronic to me. I guess even smart people can say moronic things. Peace.

Offline hblair

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kidnapped CA girls,their dates just let it happen?
« Reply #23 on: August 02, 2002, 01:18:05 PM »
Man, what happened to the good old fashioned venom we used to have here?

:(

Offline Nifty

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kidnapped CA girls,their dates just let it happen?
« Reply #24 on: August 02, 2002, 01:44:34 PM »
Hblair.  Bear's still dead and Auburn is gonna kick yer butt in the Iron Bowl.

sorry man, that's all the venom I got.  ;)
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Offline Shuckins

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kidnapped CA girls,their dates just let it happen?
« Reply #25 on: August 02, 2002, 01:52:00 PM »
The actions taken by the victim would depend on the situation itself and the victim's mindset.

I have seen statistics over the years that indicate that those who do not resist are more likely to suffer beatings, death, or rape at the hand of their assailants than are those who resist in some way.

Of course, statistics can be manipulated to show any result you happen to want...so they are often totally unreliable.  However, we are given our survival instinct for a reason.  When threatened, most animals do not hesitate to fight back.  Why should we?

Let me give you a case in point:

Several years ago I read of an incident involving a policeman who attempted to arrest a violent felon.  The cop was in good physical condition and was getting the best of the con in the hand to hand struggle.  At some point, the con got his hands on the cop's .357 revolver.

With the con cursing him and threatening to kill him the cop suddenly thought of his wife and invalid daughter.  As he thought of them having make their way though life without him he suddenly decided to fight.  He psyched himself up, made himself insane with fury and adrenalin.  When he attacked, the con opened fire.

Despite being shot five times with his own revolver, he came over the gun and kicked the living crap out of the con.  Nearly killed him.  And he lived through the ordeal.

I remember another case:

A mugger spotted a blind man walking through a city-park and decided to rob him.  Brave man.  What could be safer, right?

Wrong!  He made the mistake of letting the blind man get his hands on him.  The struggle degenerated into a wrestling match.  The victim managed to get his hand on a rock and then proceeded to beat the scumbag to death with it.



I'm not advocating that it is always the wisest thing to do to resist.  As I said at the front of this post, that would depend on the situation.  But at times it is safer to resist than to simply try to give the scum what they want.  Quite often they want more than just your money...they want your body or your life.  In that situation you may as well resist.  What have you got to lose?


Regards, Shuckins

Offline udet

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kidnapped CA girls,their dates just let it happen?
« Reply #26 on: August 02, 2002, 02:36:36 PM »
peace to you too midnight. The incident just made me really mad,when i found out the girls have been raped.
But I won't retract the part about how I would act in such a situation. I could never live with myeslf afterwards, knowing that I let somebody be kidnapped and raped.

Offline Eagler

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kidnapped CA girls,their dates just let it happen?
« Reply #27 on: August 02, 2002, 02:50:37 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by udet
peace to you too midnight. The incident just made me really mad,when i found out the girls have been raped.
But I won't retract the part about how I would act in such a situation. I could never live with myeslf afterwards, knowing that I let somebody be kidnapped and raped.


by living you'd have saved them in the end. Bruse Lee toejame would have killed you and the girls.

I think you are a youngster so I retract my moron remark. :)
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Offline udet

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kidnapped CA girls,their dates just let it happen?
« Reply #28 on: August 02, 2002, 04:49:59 PM »
I'm 22 years old. Define youngster,please...

Offline Durr

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kidnapped CA girls,their dates just let it happen?
« Reply #29 on: August 02, 2002, 05:48:51 PM »
The problem with all this is that it is Monday morning quarterbacking of the worst possible kind.  I have always been more of a resister than a submitter as far as my planned response for a situation like these, but it is all so case dependent.  

9/11 along with many criminal cases that have happened through history did indeed teach us that in many cases submitting will just lead to your death in the end anyhow.  My personal opinion is that if I were taken in a situation like this, and I submitted, and this happened,  I wouldnt be able to live with second guessing what could have been if only I had resisted.  However, human will to live is a strong force, and I wasnt in their shoes.  A gun to the head is a powerful persuader.

Certainly there are still cases where submitting may be the best option.  Lets say you are in a vehicle with your girlfriend and the bad guy comes up and points his gun at her from a distance and says, "Im taking your car, dont move or I'll kill your girlfriend."  Now I'm in the military, and I risk my life for a living but I'm a lot less comfortable risking somebody elses life.  If I think the dirtbag is just after the car, and I believe that if I move to resist he is definitely going to kill her, than I'm not going to try anything stupid.  He is standing more than 20 feet away and is smart enough not to give away the standoff advantage the gun gives him.  You are in the car and the engine isnt running so you cant run without giving him all the time he needs to shoot.  You can see that this is a scenario where I would really think twice about resisting, because if I mess up, she dies.  The decision time will be very short, and then the bad guy orders you out on the ground face down and says to leave the keys in the car.  Now that you are laying face down the bad guy comes up and cuffs your hands behind your back, takes the girl and leaves.  There are many other possible scenarios that could have happened that would explain this just as well, besides the easy conclusion for everybody that the boyfriends must have been sissies.  The boyfriend was the one on the spot, he had to make the decision and he did what he thought was right at the time Im sure, if he even had time to think about it much.  We will never know if by resisting the boyfriends would have stopped this crime from occurring or if they would have just ended up adding to the toll, with the girls still getting taken.  The fact is, they were there, you and me were not.  I will not second guess their decision.  

Crime is somewhat rare and the odds are against you ever becoming the victim of violent crime, but it isnt as rare as some people seem to think.  I am only 25, and I have had several close brushes with violent crime either directed at me or people I know.  I am certainly not blaming these kids for what happened to them, but I think that parking at 1 AM in lonely areas is a risky practice.  The "son of sam" killings, and many other serial killers have proved this to be so.  There are plenty of secured areas that you can go to.  

That all said, if I found myself in this situation I can only hope that I would have the opportunity and the strength to resist.  I would rather die fighting a warriors death, then be shot execution style after I was tied up.  You never know what could happen, the man says he is going to shoot you if you move, how do you know he isnt just going to tie you up then take you somewhere else, then shoot you?  Again, that is putting the whole situation in his hands, I would rather trust in my own strength and luck than put my fate in the bad guys hands like that.  Its all situational though, there is no "one size fits all" solution.  These kids may have done the right thing, none of us can say.  I feel terribly sorry for them and the girls though.  I hope the media will leave them alone and allow them to get on with their lives, and I hope they recover quickly from this ordeal.